Foundations of Farming

[czechmate]

Move to France?

I did
The post I made was largely the reason behind it as I just couldn’t see a future in “the family farm” in the uk. With three kids, I didn’t see how I was going to face the reality of needing to disinherit 2 daughters.
And now, the numbers are even worse than when I left.
I never have, or can, agree with Clive that land value and farming are totally divorced

 

[Lowland1]

I did
The post I made was largely the reason behind it as I just couldn’t see a future in “the family farm” in the uk. With three kids, I didn’t see how I was going to face the reality of needing to disinherit 2 daughters.
And now, the numbers are even worse than when I left.
I never have, or can, agree with Clive that land value and farming are totally divorced

Buying land to farm isn't possible unless you already have a fair size chunk or you are presenting 'Who wants to be a millionaire ?' and need somewhere to hide your cash. I've done very well renting but i'd like my own but it's not going to happen in the UK or Kenya and thanks to Brexit France neither. The size of farm needed to maintain a living gets larger and larger every year which as you say will eventually kill farming in the UK.

 

[ski]

The thinnings straight forward.
Ever tried expressing a divergent opinion here?
I got most of a page of abuse for one. Not even an extreme one.
That and you invariably end up in an argument with a fascist. Which is best avoided. That said I'm always looking for an excuse to post some dorian electra.


Beyond that, well, I suspect my grandfather would laugh at you. Peace in his time and a pile of money? In exchange for some paperwork that someone else does? It was hardly a faustian bargain.

I think your rhetorical flourish there is a sign you don't really get the problem. It isn't fundamentally okay in the UK. Things are fundamentally wrong. That's with just about everything and it's going to take fairly major changes to get back to not much happening.

I reread my post, I don't think that I said or inferred that it is not fundamentally ok, but was rather posing what you suggest I wasn't, that is asking what are those things that are wrong. On which you brought no light to bear though I expect you have some thoughts. What are the major changes you speak of? And as for not a Faustian bargain, then what is it? Surely it is exactly what has been done, the noble peasant sold his morality and spirituality for material gain, he was not forced he was enticed.

Please, sketch out the territory, I am interested in what you see.

I am more Lindisfarne than dorian electra.

 

[Hindsight]

Your son will be fine- he will emigrate like my kids will.

A glib statement that is so GB empire. By dint of birth you might well be right. Assuming a UK passport is accepted in future somewhere acceptable to a white Brit. But an child born of a poor Somalian the same day as your children. What chance for them. What chance their dad just says nonchantly 'he will emigrate someday' as though it can be to anywhere and is a god given (well passport really) right. Interesting first world exceptionalism. Hey ho. Not meant to denigrate you statement just a personal observation on society. Cheers.

 

[Cowcorn]

There have been many well contested threads debated on this forum but I discern what may be termed a 'thinning' in not only the views posted but also a 'thinning' in the threads themselves. By 'thinning' I posit that there is a weariness in the ranks of the forum members that is reflected in replies and in the subject matter raised, I certainly feel a level of that myself and was wondering if this is felt widely or is it just me? For the purposes of this thread I will assume there is at least something in my observation and therefore would ask why is this the case, what has been the reason, and what can we do about it?

Perhaps it is the constant barrage of anti-farming propaganda spewing forth from all mainstream sources and the inability we all see and feel in any absence of a well placed counter narrative. Is it also because of the divergent voices within our ranks? Can we find 'common ground' with the ecological hardliners as some think we should surely these people who can only continue if they keep moving the goalposts, because they cannot accept that a good standard of welfare, husbandry or ecological concerns have been met, because then their reason to exist has been removed so they have no alternative but to keep shifting the end point.

Our farming bodies appear to be a bit like the vaccines and claim that things would have been much worse without them, a claim which is not falsifiable, and it is hard to decide whether it is time to demolish and rebuild or get involved and change from within.

On top of all that the last two years have brought a whole new set of concerns we had never dreamed off, and wherever you stand on the whole pandemic debate, all opinions also have a set of anxieties and fears contingent with their position.

When you think about all the issues we confront at this time it is easy to come to the conclusion that things have never been so difficult. It is not clear to me that this is the case, all generations have boogeymen real or imagined to contend with ( and I do think most of them are concocted by governments so they can also then propose the solution and thus show themselves to be great men) and the level of anxiety is probably remarkably similar for the generations.

Should we consider the possibility that what really separates us from our forebears is not any difference in ability, but in conviction. And maybe we should examine why our convictions are less strongly held than our fathers and their fathers before them. Could it be that we have entered a Faustian bargain with the Government and what we call 'big agriculture', and many of us are now sensing and feeling uneasy as the realisation of what that bargain means?

I should like to hear what others think and why, perhaps describe what they think are the foundations of farming and perhaps what we might be able to do, (in the particular rather than the abstract) to fortify our foundations.

The day when people were grateful for a plentiful supply of reasonably priced food has sadly passed
The generation that lived through rationing and shortages put greater value on their food supply and its producers the farmers .
Now food is close to the bottom of the list of the modern consumers priorities .
The relentless pressure on margins has forced many family farmers out of farming .
The rise of " big Agri " is dressed up as efficent and progressive .
Small farmers or " old kit " are looked on as a joke .... Its all a crock of shite and the so called farmers reps have indeed entered a faustian bargain with the Gov to eradicate the Tenant and small owner ocoupier .
Add the likes of Dyson piling in to take advantage of tax breaks that were meant to help low margin business transfer to the next generation .
Sad fact is some farmers think the can benefit from the current crap show so the stay quiet .
Without a social dimension Ag policy in the Uk is rudderless and fairly soon critical mass will be lost.
One man and his drill will drill wheat and Osr on any suitable ground across 3 counties the rest will be planted with trees to help big companies sell the " carbon neutral " lie to the gullible public ...
Call me a bitter old barsteward if you like but thats how it looks from over here and unless something changes the rot goes on and buying land will be the preserve of the wealthy .
As regards farming without owning land or a fair tenancy ??? Was that not tried before ?? I think the called it Serfdom .

 

[ollie989898]

A glib statement that is so GB empire. By dint of birth you might well be right. Assuming a UK passport is accepted in future somewhere acceptable to a white Brit. But an child born of a poor Somalian the same day as your children. What chance for them. What chance their dad just says nonchantly 'he will emigrate someday' as though it can be to anywhere and is a god given (well passport really) right. Interesting first world exceptionalism. Hey ho. Not meant to denigrate you statement just a personal observation on society. Cheers.

Not at all- I have family abroad. I had the chance to go abroad as well but chose not to because I was too chicken.

In reality your statement is now false as well, by a twist of fate if you can call it that. Millions of people from Somalia and other countries now work abroad in places like Qatar where they find plenty of work in construction.

 

[ollie989898]

Where to?

Wherever they are wanted.

If you are willing to graft you will succeed anywhere in the world where graft it needed.

 

[ski]

Sad fact is some farmers think the can benefit from the current crap show so the stay quiet .
Without a social dimension Ag policy in the Uk is rudderless and fairly soon critical mass will be lost.

Are these quiet men aware?

And from whence does a social policy come, not from the stroke of a government apparatchik's pen, and what is more they would claim they never removed it, and on that latter point I fear they may be right.

Your post has traction for me, though as for rudderless, surely the rudder is hard pressed to port, where there lie the sunny uplands of a re-wilded utopia bringing forth the bounty of nature without the need of calloused hands?

Is there anything, even the smallest anything that the owner of those hands can do, he may be no Spartacus, but surely we must find at least some thing that we can do that is congruent with our core?

 

[Lowland1]

A glib statement that is so GB empire. By dint of birth you might well be right. Assuming a UK passport is accepted in future somewhere acceptable to a white Brit. But an child born of a poor Somalian the same day as your children. What chance for them. What chance their dad just says nonchantly 'he will emigrate someday' as though it can be to anywhere and is a god given (well passport really) right. Interesting first world exceptionalism. Hey ho. Not meant to denigrate you statement just a personal observation on society. Cheers.

Well I sort of did by default. Although I still call England home, speak mostly English and participate on this English farming forum. So i'm like those Pakistanis in Bradford or Burnley. Truthfully it's generally a one way street now we can move backwards and forwards but we don't want the darkies or the Slavs doing the same. From a farming perspective it's worked well however a similar thing as UK applies in that I should have bought land here when it was cheap and now it's too late. One thing in my favour here though is I am a much better farmer than the majority whilst in the UK generally the bad farmers are long gone and best of all is that there is zero support for agriculture ( or anyone) so you just get on and don't worry about agricultural policy because there is none.

 

[unlacedgecko]

A glib statement that is so GB empire. By dint of birth you might well be right. Assuming a UK passport is accepted in future somewhere acceptable to a white Brit. But an child born of a poor Somalian the same day as your children. What chance for them. What chance their dad just says nonchantly 'he will emigrate someday' as though it can be to anywhere and is a god given (well passport really) right. Interesting first world exceptionalism. Hey ho. Not meant to denigrate you statement just a personal observation on society. Cheers.

Thank goodness for the hard work, sacrifice, innovation and down right bloody mindedness of my ancestors then.

IDGAF about your hypothetical Somalian. It's my white son that concerns me. You can be damn sure the Somalian doesn't care about me or mine, and wouldn't hesitate to kill or maim us if he thought it would further his cause.

 

[merino]

I reread my post, I don't think that I said or inferred that it is not fundamentally ok, but was rather posing what you suggest I wasn't, that is asking what are those things that are wrong. On which you brought no light to bear though I expect you have some thoughts. What are the major changes you speak of? And as for not a Faustian bargain, then what is it? Surely it is exactly what has been done, the noble peasant sold his morality and spirituality for material gain, he was not forced he was enticed.

Please, sketch out the territory, I am interested in what you see.

I am more Lindisfarne than dorian electra.

To my mind the problems the UK has are products of what it is. In order not to have these problems the UK needs to be something else.

For starters the UK needs to bin the monarchy, the house of Lords and all heritable titles. It needs a PR voting system, stronger devolution and federalism, as in the partition of England into blocks of between five and ten million people, England is too big for the UK.

After that, land reform, why isn't there a land tax? Why isn't there an English right to roam? Landlords need to take a bath, if for no other reason than that hasn't happened since pre the first world war.

Private education needs to stop. As in close then demolish, then plant native woodland on top.

That might sound radical but we're very much in turning up to work sober and wearing trousers territory with that, other countries don't accept the nonsense.

Beyond that, I don't think there should be immigration laws, drugs laws, estates, a BBC, a tory party, or a parliament in London.

More positively you'd then be able to do things like house people and make sure kids get enough to eat.

My grandfather grew up hunting hare on a mountain side in a country living in the shadow of a string of national tragedies. He'd refuse the charecterisation of nobility in poverty that's for sure.
Personally I just can't comprehend why you'd think there's something wrong with getting paid for going to work?

I know this is tangential in a sense, but rights are fundamental to agriculture and the UK isn't great on those at the moment. A big part of the source of that problem is how shabby and unreformed the political system is. Things are nowhere near as bad for agriculture on the continent, in countries with more representative political systems.

Simply, the foundation of farming is human rights.

I think you've got the order wrong, agriculture didn't go wrong (we're not that important), things went wrong elsewhere, and UK agriculture is lumbered with the consequences.

I will however consent to listening to one lindisfarne song.

 

[czechmate]

To my mind the problems the UK has are products of what it is. In order not to have these problems the UK needs to be something else.

For starters the UK needs to bin the monarchy, the house of Lords and all heritable titles. It needs a PR voting system, stronger devolution and federalism, as in the partition of England into blocks of between five and ten million people, England is too big for the UK.

After that, land reform, why isn't there a land tax? Why isn't there an English right to roam? Landlords need to take a bath, if for no other reason than that hasn't happened since pre the first world war.

Private education needs to stop. As in close then demolish, then plant native woodland on top.

That might sound radical but we're very much in turning up to work sober and wearing trousers territory with that, other countries don't accept the nonsense.

Beyond that, I don't think there should be immigration laws, drugs laws, estates, a BBC, a tory party, or a parliament in London.

More positively you'd then be able to do things like house people and make sure kids get enough to eat.

My grandfather grew up hunting hare on a mountain side in a country living in the shadow of a string of national tragedies. He'd refuse the charecterisation of nobility in poverty that's for sure.
Personally I just can't comprehend why you'd think there's something wrong with getting paid for going to work?

I know this is tangential in a sense, but rights are fundamental to agriculture and the UK isn't great on those at the moment. A big part of the source of that problem is how shabby and unreformed the political system is. Things are nowhere near as bad for agriculture on the continent, in countries with more representative political systems.

Simply, the foundation of farming is human rights.

I think you've got the order wrong, agriculture didn't go wrong (we're not that important), things went wrong elsewhere, and UK agriculture is lumbered with the consequences.

I will however consent to listening to one lindisfarne song.

 

[unlacedgecko]

To my mind the problems the UK has are products of what it is. In order not to have these problems the UK needs to be something else.

For starters the UK needs to bin the monarchy, the house of Lords and all heritable titles. It needs a PR voting system, stronger devolution and federalism, as in the partition of England into blocks of between five and ten million people, England is too big for the UK.

After that, land reform, why isn't there a land tax? Why isn't there an English right to roam? Landlords need to take a bath, if for no other reason than that hasn't happened since pre the first world war.

Private education needs to stop. As in close then demolish, then plant native woodland on top.

That might sound radical but we're very much in turning up to work sober and wearing trousers territory with that, other countries don't accept the nonsense.

Beyond that, I don't think there should be immigration laws, drugs laws, estates, a BBC, a tory party, or a parliament in London.

More positively you'd then be able to do things like house people and make sure kids get enough to eat.

My grandfather grew up hunting hare on a mountain side in a country living in the shadow of a string of national tragedies. He'd refuse the charecterisation of nobility in poverty that's for sure.
Personally I just can't comprehend why you'd think there's something wrong with getting paid for going to work?

I know this is tangential in a sense, but rights are fundamental to agriculture and the UK isn't great on those at the moment. A big part of the source of that problem is how shabby and unreformed the political system is. Things are nowhere near as bad for agriculture on the continent, in countries with more representative political systems.

Simply, the foundation of farming is human rights.

I think you've got the order wrong, agriculture didn't go wrong (we're not that important), things went wrong elsewhere, and UK agriculture is lumbered with the consequences.

I will however consent to listening to one lindisfarne song.

You're a moron

 

[Lowland1]

You're a moron

I dunno. There's some valid points in there executing the Royal family and the nobility is a good start. Proportional representation has worked pretty well for some countries. Not so keen of abolishing private education but removing lots of laws seems a good idea I'm quite a fan of anarchy.

 

[merino]

You're a moron

With a host of furious fancies
Whereof I am commander,
With a burning spear and a horse of air,
To the wilderness I wander.
By a knight of ghosts and shadows
I summoned am to tourney
Ten leagues beyond the wide world's end:
Methinks it is no journey.

 

[unlacedgecko]

I dunno. There's some valid points in there executing the Royal family and the nobility is a good start. Proportional representation has worked pretty well for some countries. Not so keen of abolishing private education but removing lots of laws seems a good idea I'm quite a fan of anarchy.

You want to become a 2nd class citizen in your own country? PR and no immigration law is an excellent way to legally go about it.

 

[ski]

To my mind the problems the UK has are products of what it is. In order not to have these problems the UK needs to be something else.

For starters the UK needs to bin the monarchy, the house of Lords and all heritable titles. It needs a PR voting system, stronger devolution and federalism, as in the partition of England into blocks of between five and ten million people, England is too big for the UK.

After that, land reform, why isn't there a land tax? Why isn't there an English right to roam? Landlords need to take a bath, if for no other reason than that hasn't happened since pre the first world war.

Private education needs to stop. As in close then demolish, then plant native woodland on top.

That might sound radical but we're very much in turning up to work sober and wearing trousers territory with that, other countries don't accept the nonsense.

Beyond that, I don't think there should be immigration laws, drugs laws, estates, a BBC, a tory party, or a parliament in London.

More positively you'd then be able to do things like house people and make sure kids get enough to eat.

My grandfather grew up hunting hare on a mountain side in a country living in the shadow of a string of national tragedies. He'd refuse the charecterisation of nobility in poverty that's for sure.
Personally I just can't comprehend why you'd think there's something wrong with getting paid for going to work?

I know this is tangential in a sense, but rights are fundamental to agriculture and the UK isn't great on those at the moment. A big part of the source of that problem is how shabby and unreformed the political system is. Things are nowhere near as bad for agriculture on the continent, in countries with more representative political systems.

Simply, the foundation of farming is human rights.

I think you've got the order wrong, agriculture didn't go wrong (we're not that important), things went wrong elsewhere, and UK agriculture is lumbered with the consequences.

I will however consent to listening to one lindisfarne song.

Your desire for improvement and 'progress' is self evident, and in my view a worthy aim, and I too share that aim, but hold on tiger, should we not consider what this progress is that we want.

Progress happens in the direction of a goal or objective, and from your comments, (I am extrapolating here so correct me if I have misinterpreted you) it sounds like you want a fairer society, should we say one where your merits are more directly linked to outcomes or is it where all efforts are more equally shared, I'm not sure which of those two you would prefer, though there are issues with both, or perhaps there is a third way you are advocating, in any case illuminate if I'm wrong.

Given that you aims are worthy or noble and I share broadly that position I suspect strongly that a gulf exists between us in the best way to move toward those goals, but we both wish to move in that direction. A good place to start from it would seem.

Again I am extrapolating but I think that you are younger than I ( three score years and counting here) and more idealistic than me. I was idealistic to, and was warned that my idealism would be tempered by age, though at the time I would have none of it, it was and is true nonetheless. And whilst the years weathered my ideals I would not deny the young the excitement of the possibility of the future, however I would deny it it in the old, and further, saddle them with the responsibility of instruction to those who follow, not instruction in 'what to do' but in 'what I have learned'.

Before I blabber on much more, I would like to know, and it is a genuine and really important question that relates to your comment regarding human rights, and my question is this, from what foundation are you building the case for human rights. It will help me to see not only a direction but where you are starting from and you may be extremely clear in that, but when I read some of the treads I find myself thinking some people seem to start from multiple points and want to head in different directions all at the same time, so I think it worth working through some of these ideas from the ground up?

 

[ski]

You're a moron

That's not helpful or fair, follow the arguments before you make a judgement.

 

[merino]

Your desire for improvement and 'progress' is self evident, and in my view a worthy aim, and I too share that aim, but hold on tiger, should we not consider what this progress is that we want.

Progress happens in the direction of a goal or objective, and from your comments, (I am extrapolating here so correct me if I have misinterpreted you) it sounds like you want a fairer society, should we say one where your merits are more directly linked to outcomes or is it where all efforts are more equally shared, I'm not sure which of those two you would prefer, though there are issues with both, or perhaps there is a third way you are advocating, in any case illuminate if I'm wrong.

Given that you aims are worthy or noble and I share broadly that position I suspect strongly that a gulf exists between us in the best way to move toward those goals, but we both wish to move in that direction. A good place to start from it would seem.

Again I am extrapolating but I think that you are younger than I ( three score years and counting here) and more idealistic than me. I was idealistic to, and was warned that my idealism would be tempered by age, though at the time I would have none of it, it was and is true nonetheless. And whilst the years weathered my ideals I would not deny the young the excitement of the possibility of the future, however I would deny it it in the old, and further, saddle them with the responsibility of instruction to those who follow, not instruction in 'what to do' but in 'what I have learned'.

Before I blabber on much more, I would like to know, and it is a genuine and really important question that relates to your comment regarding human rights, and my question is this, from what foundation are you building the case for human rights. It will help me to see not only a direction but where you are starting from and you may be extremely clear in that, but when I read some of the treads I find myself thinking some people seem to start from multiple points and want to head in different directions all at the same time, so I think it worth working through some of these ideas from the ground up?

The book my ideas originate from is called Land, its by Derek Hall.

 

[unlacedgecko]

With a host of furious fancies
Whereof I am commander,
With a burning spear and a horse of air,
To the wilderness I wander.
By a knight of ghosts and shadows
I summoned am to tourney
Ten leagues beyond the wide world's end:
Methinks it is no journey.

How apt.