George Eustice's announcement "The path to sustainable farming." 2021-2024

[Sid]

What are the % reductions for the BPS for 2021/22/23 years?

Are they still going to pay some of the BPS from 2024 to and including 2027?

Can you still apply for Mid/ Higher Tier next year for a start date in early 2022?

Also another question :

They are talking about paying out a lump sum but will that only be for people that retire from the industry or for people who want to carry on farming but happy to take the one large lump sum and not claim in future years??

No

There is 49 pages of waffle and more waffle and just one page that will tell us what they intend to do and life is far too short to waste reading all that drivel to come across that one page!

Well i had a meeting today with someone very high up and knows everything about these schemes etc and he stated to me that there is no point reading all that waffle as things will change again before they are implemented and untill they set the final rules there is not much point worrying too much!

As he said: The devil is in the detail and when you finally have that then you start looking at your options!

A hell of a lot can and may well change before 2024 including perhaps a new Gov who may well rip up this Elms scheme/ % of BPS payments and start again!

Bit confused here, your "high up" person says to ignore it, but you didn't ask them the questions you are putting to us mere mortals.

49 pages of waffle, why not sit down and read the actual 60 page document at the beginning of the thread all the answers ,or not, are in there.

Which ever way you look at it slipper farmers who let out their land and sit back and do nothing days for subs are over.

 

[Sid]

Hi, an exit/retirement scheme was mooted and an option for member states under the EU CAP reforms that brought about the Single Payment Scheme introduced in 2005, and again when EU directive changed SPS to Basic Payment Scheme in 2015, so the concept is not new.

Defra has considered for several years that the business structure of Agriculture is ossified, hinders new entrants and the 'promotion' of junior partners thus slows / blocks adoption of technical change. Just in 2005 and again in 2015 Defra didn't tackle what is a difficult issue to manage with the farming community bit also with the general public, particularly as for the next 10 years the taxpayer is going to have to fund Covid. And any current student with a student loan would think 'what the hell is UK government doing paying farmers a lump sum'. I wait with great interest how Defra / Conservative Party is going to package this in light of a headline in The Daily Mail and letters to MPs from the general public.

I see it as easy to administer.

Taking a lump sum early or waiting for the money for 7 years for the same amount. I would be tempted depending on the tax implications

 

[Hilly]

What is 'idiotic' about creating meaningful jobs and stronger communities ? Anything I have ever been involved in work-wise has been seen as 'environmental', but it stands on its own merits for economic and social reasons.
Don't bother replying; if your opening gambit is to call people a crazy idiot you can feck off .

What is wrong with the environment th

So are you saying the NFU and AHDB have to employ highly paid advertising staff to create a brand that may actually not even be relevant to 25,50,75% of the paid up members?

I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land

I totally agree , the guys who sold development land will be fine and theirs a few on here. Us other mortals will slowly die I’ve diversified but it won’t be enough for the loss off crop income and subs . Told my 14 yr old who wants to farm to think about another career as I don’t want him to live on a poor low paid income.

me two but I tell you what their are millions in high wages would swap the money for the farming life style , sadly it’s hard to have both ! The amount of yuppies I get here in holiday accom give their right arm for my work like a dog low paid job is unreal they get well paid Friday night but they got nothing because they live their lives according fancy car finance expensive house expensive holls all things to keep them happy Cos they have a miserable job ,

 

[GeorgeK]

Spoke to my old neighbour about the changes today. He said he's just going to keep doing what he's doing till somebody comes round and tells him to stop. Its a formula that has served him well so far.

Might be the bank manager or suppliers that haven't been paid telling him to stop! Keeping doing what you've always done is easy when the subsidy covers the losses every year

 

[former farmer]

I am one of the older partners and have realised that the pensions of me and others will go a fair way to replace the demise of current payments so the question is how is that going to help in any restructuring of the industry or push us here to engage in these proposed loss making schemes, just got to keep alive and in reasonable health but if I wasnt wouldnt be my problem ( selfish old git im becoming)but then im now in a position to expand which will mean rents wont come down as some expect. plus should I and others leave this mortal coil the living costs and drawings will also reduce so basically onwards and upwards as ive no intention of going down to hell or arcadia land!!!!

Another issue not mentioned, would individuals who took this package, be able to claim 'working farmer' relief for IHT purposes? With the value of any land in an estate this allowance, whilst still available, would be worth appreciably more.

 

[midlandslad]

I see it as easy to administer.

Taking a lump sum early or waiting for the money for 7 years for the same amount. I would be tempted depending on the tax implications

the lump sum will be available in 2024 and will therefore only be 4 years of significantly reduced payments at best. Not that exciting really. Particularly if you get hammered on income tax and you are unable to use profit averaging as it is your last year trading from memory.

 

[onthehoof]

Still can't see how this retirement scheme is going to help new entrants, on a fair few tenanted farms the farmer retires at 65 already, those who own their farms will sell to the highest bidder

 

[Sid]

the lump sum will be available in 2024 and will therefore only be 4 years of significantly reduced payments at best. Not that exciting really. Particularly if you get hammered on income tax and you are unable to use profit averaging as it is your last year trading from memory.

Devil is in the detail, which as usual we are all speculating about.

So I wonder what might happen to land values in 2024? Up as cash injection looking for a home, or down as those taking lump sum want/have to get out?

 

[digger64]

[QUOwill they post: 7269893, member: 574"]
Devil is in the detail, which as usual we are all speculating about.

So I wonder what might happen to land values in 2024? Up as cash injection looking for a home, or down as those taking lump sum want/have to get out?
[/QUOTE]
Why will they have to move house ? most estates would let them stay in the house as part of a deal to get the land in hand or fbt and family farm successors are unlikely to move their parents out onto the street .

 

[delilah]

I don’t understand people that still think Elms will replace BPS, unless in a very simplified form, ie- get paid a few pounds for low input pp

Then that is what should be pushed for. All area based ELMS to be paid on PP. Such a scheme would deliver the greatest public good, and be the best option financially for UK ag. What am I missing ?

 

[Henarar]

Which ever way you look at it slipper farmers who let out their land and sit back and do nothing days for subs are over.

Perhaps they will claim elms and sit back and do nothing

 

[Henarar]

Then that is what should be pushed for. All area based ELMS to be paid on PP. Such a scheme would deliver the greatest public good, and be the best option financially for UK ag. What am I missing ?

The fact they want rid of what is best for the environment
PP is for planting trees in, don't you know

 

[Sid]

Perhaps they will claim elms and sit back and do nothing

It looks like its going to be income foregone with costs involved.

 

[digger64]

Bit confused here, your "high up" person says to ignore it, but you didn't ask them the questions you are putting to us mere mortals.

49 pages of waffle, why not sit down and read the actual 60 page document at the beginning of the thread all the answers ,or not, are in there.

Which ever way you look at it slipper farmers who let out their land and sit back and do nothing days for subs are over.

How do you conclude that ? I would suggest those" days" are just about to begin big time unless farming suddenly becomes much more profitable for other economic reasons .

 

[serf]

Another issue not mentioned, would individuals who took this package, be able to claim 'working farmer' relief for IHT purposes? With the value of any land in an estate this allowance, whilst still available, would be worth appreciably more.

This would be the main issue to owner occupied land " retiring " in terms of the scheme , the poxy one off payout would be chicken feed to the loss of IHT relief to the estate .

 

[delilah]

The fact they want rid of what is best for the environment
PP is for planting trees in, don't you know

As I said earlier in this thread, they don't know what they want. The paper just released can be summarized in one word: "Help !". We should help them.

ELMS is easy:
1) All area based payments to go to PP.
2) Most of the remainder to go to the 'public engagement' section. Get bus loads of kids out of the cities on day trips to farms. For which arable farms are best suited. Clean yards, days when they can plan to be available.

It's 'public money for public goods'. Which means teaching the kids and giving everyone else a nice day out. The public will play merry hell if the PP goes to scrub.

 

[Sid]

How do you conclude that ? I would suggest those" days" are just about to begin big time unless farming suddenly becomes much more profitable for other economic reasons .

Because at the moment you get a lump sum for doing nothing.
Elms is going to be based on income forgone, and upon targets such as wildlife corridors, tree planting, hedge row management, fencing
They all have a cost involved.
£90/acre for nothing
£90/acre with costs

 

[Mixedupfarmer]

We only applied this year because we didn't want to jump into something if it was going to change halfway through.

Low input pp that we have practised for 10 years or more won't cost us a penny more than it ever had and will put over 6k in my pocket.


I'm afraid I do!

Fair enough, but you could have had mid tier payments for the last 5 years on your PP and had £30k income over that period? Luckily your rent must be low enough not to have needed to.

 

[DRC]

Then that is what should be pushed for. All area based ELMS to be paid on PP. Such a scheme would deliver the greatest public good, and be the best option financially for UK ag. What am I missing ?

It’s not all about carbon though is it.
What about habitat and food for birds and bees. So pollen and nectar plots. Bird seed plots. Beetle banks . Pond restoration etc.

 

[farmerm]

the lump sum will be available in 2024 and will therefore only be 4 years of significantly reduced payments at best. Not that exciting really. Particularly if you get hammered on income tax and you are unable to use profit averaging as it is your last year trading from memory.

If that planned schedule does become reality... 2024 BPS will be about 50% of todays value and the following years added together will be about 50% of todays value... a lump sum taken in 2024 for the remaining BPS will not be very much more that the 2020 value arriving in our accounts this month....