Is handling now permitted?

Discussion in 'Competition Ploughing' started by Ley253, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. is it the ones complaining about handling that are the bad losers,
    or the ones handling ?
     
    Howard150 likes this.
  2. once asked a member on here (you know who you are) about the rules in the High cut, the reply was make sure your finished on time, and have you got a gardening assistant, yes a man with a hoe to shape the furrows and pull weeds out, to follow you all day while your ploughing,
    no I said I just on my own today,
    yes it was true, the others had assistants doing the above all day long,
    but I did not complain about it, just get on with it
     
    wuddy likes this.
  3. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    First of all, while I did , and may well do again, take photographs and use them in a legit protest, I would rather the stewards did this. Photographing offenders has long lasting effects, the model in my shots was like a cat on a hot tin roof at several later matches, frightened to leave the cab, if he saw a camera! Also, just letting it be known that the stewards will have cameras, turns every camera carrying spectator into a potential steward!
    Regarding morality, it has, as far as I can see, no bearing on ability, and thus results good or poor.In any case, like beauty, it does seem to reside in the eye of the beholder!
     
    arcobob likes this.
  4. cb387

    cb387 Member

    Location:
    Glos
    If not handling ploughing or kicking the ends over brands me as a ‘luddite’ then I am quite happy to be so. I’d rather the compliments from follow ploughmen for a job well done fairly, than the hollow victory that comes from simply cheating to get higher up the score sheet. It is a P L O U G H I N G match after all
     
    arcobob likes this.
  5. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    Kicking the ends over is legal, providing you stop at the mark! Having ends to kick over here is however not, ploughs can only be put in the ground on the competitors plot!
    I have even been to one yfc match where the rules stated that competitors could not leave the headlands of their plots after the match had started! It was put in to stop running around empty, did that all right, no one could move!
     
  6. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    Where was that John?
     
  7. yellowbelly

    yellowbelly Member

    Location:
    N.Lincs
    Now, I hope you ploughing boys don't mind me sticking my oar in here. I'm just a simple shepherd, who regularly looks in here, 'cos I admire a bit of good ploughing. You're quite welcome to tell me to fudge off back to Livestock and Forage if you like:confused:
    To be honest, I can't believe what I'm reading - all this talk about gardening or handling or whatever you want to call it.
    Surely the Ploughing Society (Society of Ploughmen??) has rules?
    If it has rules, then why doesn't it have the bollocks to enforce them?

    Do you guys pay a sub to it? If you do, IMHO you don't get your money's worth, however much it costs a year.

    A couple of months ago, I seem to remember reading on here that somebody's plough had been sabotaged at the National Match in Somerset - FFS what's going on?

    Seems like your sport is full of crooks:eek: It's a real pity 'cos you guys read like a bunch of decent blokes who freely give each other, and those less experienced guys who come here, plenty of free advice and tips in order to promote your very worthy pastime.

    Just sayin':whistle:
     
    llamedos, tomlad, Ray996 and 4 others like this.

  8. Now then so you a Shepherd from N Lincs, cant be many sheep there, and you come in here and poke your nose in,
    well feel free to say what you want,
    as for the National body, your right its the "Society of Ploughmen" yes they do make the rules or most of them,
    but they don't run the local matches, local clubs run the matches, and not all but most run them to SOP rules,
    or so they say they do, its up to the local club to find stewards that will police the match,
    if any stewards can be found, they are either old and not fit really to do the job, or they are young and don't know how to do the stewarding, or their between the 2 and are spine less and don't want to upset anyone,
    maybe a man like yourself that does not fit into any of the above, would like to do a bit of stewarding at local level,
    sure there will be a local club to you would really like a good steward, I can put you in touch with a couple if you like
     
  9. it was over the Border
     
  10. yellowbelly

    yellowbelly Member

    Location:
    N.Lincs
    Thanks for the reply @Pennine Ploughing.
    I can understand that it will be difficult to get enough volunteers to help at matches (had enough experience with organising other events/shows etc) but I find it very disappointing that all this blatant 'gardening' can't be self policed by the competitors somehow - after all I expect pretty much everybody knows everybody else. Just another example of falling standards in all walks of life I suppose:facepalm:
    Sad state of affairs:(
     
    Cordiale likes this.
  11. yes i do agree with your post,
    and yes there is a drop in standards,
    however what would the roads be like, if there was no speed cameras of any police cars ?
     
  12. Howard150

    Howard150 Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Come on now Harry. Grain or grape?. Making it up as you go along now. Kicking ends over has never been legal according to the written rules, nor is it illegal to make them - obviously the lesser the better - points out of 20. The rule about not having your plough in the ground other than on your plot is purely to stop those wandering off to the far reaches of the field to set their plough up for the opening.

    The basic point in question is of course handling. The crux of the matter is not the existence of the rule - but how each individual society administers it. Debates like these run on and on with no real winners. People will always stretch the rules and those people are inherently winners which leaves a double edged sword. These people have also set new standards for people to aspire to - and before you say it - it does not legalise contravention of rules. If you feel so strongly about it get yourself elected as a Director of the SOP (notwithstanding there are only 8 now) and impose sanctions from the very top. That is where it needs to be driven from. All the rants on here cause nothing but division. Just get on with it and enjoy your ploughing.

    Just one small point never aired on here before... The “serial handlers” as described on here, including those of us not having a problem either way, have by and large accrued a serious array of national and international trophies, all won where handling was strictly policed. Very much as I said earlier. Impose the rule in a proper manner, let the punters know your intent and 99% will comply.

    This is an issue which has been about since I started ploughing 20 odd years ago. It will not go away overnight. It is though easily rectified but definitely not by keyboard warriors with digicams neglecting their plot in the eternal quest for the pound of flesh as directed by the written law. Forgive me for saying so but a quest in the best traditions of an ayatollah.

    Just in passing Harry, which way would your moral compass point if one of those featuring in your mugshots of gardening offenders file were to freely offer you help and advice guaranteed to improve your ploughing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  13. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    David, the rules dont specify a distance from the plot, a mile or an inch is still not on your plot! The ends are not on your plot, so are not part of your ploughing. Shows how badly the rules are written, and how unenforceable they are!Another example, at the national at Burwell I was "Ploughing" high cut, and had made a right pigs ear. I was trimming some lumps off the unploughed ground with my paddle, when the steward marched over and told me I could not do this, as ploughing had to be left untouched after the plough.I then pointed out that, as I hadn`t ploughed it yet, that could not apply!
    The photographic celebrity was, and still is a friend, and has offered advice when asked, like another, further north, I disagree with what he does, and he is in no doubt as to my feelings!
    You admit to accrued your trophies when things were better policed, why then do you support the activities engaged in now, which would have lead to penalties in your day?
    The SOP, until it grasps the nettle, provides stewards and judges at all matches and generally becomes a governing body, will remain a talking shop, with no authority.
    Get elected, unlikely, to say the least! To manage that, you would need to be rich enough to move in circles populated by the other directors. In this case, it would be easier for a quadtrack to pass through the eye of a needle than for a poor man to enter the kingdom of Doncaster!
     
  14. Howard150

    Howard150 Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    I always read your posts with eager dread Harry. There are though comments in there worthy of note. At times we are both on the same fence, at times both trying to pull the top rail off from the wrong side. No man is an Island and the righteous man never wrong is still yet to be sired. We have at times both suffered the ire of ploughmen aggrieved probably not so much by our modifications as the gap which those modifications added in their quest to beat us.
    If you read my posts - profuse to say the least - you must admit that I do not necessarily condone handling. I do however fully and unreservedly respect the wish of any society to impose sanctions and rules as howsoever they see fit. It is not up to the punters - it is up to them. When in Rome.........
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 12:19 AM
    Pennine Ploughing likes this.
  15. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    Almost if not all the matches I attend, are run by affiliated societies, that being the case, they should abide by, and enforce the SOP rules, their affiliation removes the right to impose major changes, though depth of ploughing for example, must remain up to the locals.
    Toothless vampire? Not really, just the sight of one of those would instil some form of conformation to the rules. It is very much like Westminster, living in its own bubble, instructing lesser mortals to do as I say, not as I do! Fact remains, if they want to be the controlling body, then they have to be one, and they are far from that.They seem to revel in that position, but never have so many kings been seen without clothes!
    Only eight directors, well could be a good move, should cut the talking time down, but not if those deposed are now another level of protection, IE executive committee, reporting to executive directors, instructing a chief executive!
    There have been several attempts to form wide ranging societies to compete with the SOP, the inter counties was I think the last. All have fallen by the wayside, fact is, there are only so many people with the time and interest to put towards this requirement, and the SOP has most, if not all of them.
     
  16. rusty nuts

    rusty nuts Member

    If you are at a match that is not a SOP member how can you plough to there rules . Also try running a ploughing match its a big enough job to get judges never mind stewards I would say in 99% of matches you do not need stewards. We all know who the gardeners are you will not stop them .
     
    Ray996 likes this.
  17. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    Well, down here, we do need stewards, and while the gardeners cant be stopped, they can be slowed down, and their activities rendered "pointless"! Getting judges should be the SOPs job, if the match in question is affiliated, they should be able to request the required number from the SOP. As I have mentioned many times, if they want to be making rules etc, and act like a governing body, then they have to be a governing body, and operate their own enforcement and judging schemes.
    Judges seminars, for example, are a step in the right direction, but it all falls apart at the first hurdle, there is no compulsion for these judges who have spent their hard earned cash to get their bit of paper, to be employed at any match! It should be a requirement of affiliation that SOP accredited judges are used.If nothing else, the playing field should be levelled a bit. Stewards could be like wise trained, and that could just be a written exam. Indeed, with the numbers of judges being produced, we could follow football, the linesmen (stewards) are qualified referees (judges).
     
  18. Howard150

    Howard150 Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Need we to change “Yorkshire Disease” to “Southern Counties Disease (requiring Stewards)”?
    This utopian dream of yours Harry could never exist in reality. There is an accredited list of judges already. Some of the inclusions and omissions on there are laughable to say the least.
    If all these measures of yours were put into place perhaps some good might come out of it. The bad losers now banging on and on about handling would have to become good losers because change things as it may, change on its own would not make them winners - good or bad.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 1:24 PM
  19. Ley253

    Ley253 Member

    Location:
    Bath
    Why can my dream not exist? Its normal in many sports for the governing body to at least specify the officials at any event, and to require them to be of a set standard. Yes, there is a list of judges, does anyone bother to read it? If the officials were provided by the SOP, bad eggs would show up, and be dumped or in modern parlance retrained. Seminars should be free, but students should be willing to judge any match allocated by the SOP, within agreed limits on distance to travel, for example. It really would be a win win situation, societies would be protected from the "pet judge"complainer, and would have no worries on finding officials. Competitors would have qualified people working out the awards, who could be monitored in order ensure a required standard. New judges should be monitored in any case, a few hours in a field in Feb does not really have time to instil every aspect of the job, on the job training is still required.
    Yorkshire disease? Sadly ,no. Its really now a ploughing disease, the symptoms of which manifest themselves at every match . Some times they are treated on the spot by the issue of coloured cards, but this is all too rare a happening!
     
  20. Dealer

    Dealer Member

    Location:
    Shropshire
    The way to stop it is peer pressure

    If most of the field let it be know that handling is cheating then eventually if the dont,s outdo the do,s then it will stop

    The biggest concern is new entrants, if they see it as the normal then they join in and it just continues

    I ploughed at Lichfield 2 years ago and a sign on the stewards tent with no handling yellow and red cards employed

    Only one yellow card issued and very little handling was evident

    We have all picked the odd bit of stubble and although against the rules probably does not make much difference to the plot

    I would suggest a time frame for starts to be finished akin the opening splits as most handling is seen on the crowns not middle work.

    As for local matches with poor stewarding then a simple memorandum to judges to say deduct points for infringements when seen, does not even need to be written down

    Just a lower score than would have been given

    I play golf and it's policed by yourself and you playing partners to call penalty,s against the rules and done as a natural course.

    To take the view that it's down to SOP when they don't run local matches is unachievable

    Or change the rules to say anything goes and the best handler is given an advantage.

    At the end of the day it comes down to integrity if you are comfortable with what the rules say is cheating then you should be comfortable when called a cheat and any reputation that goes with it.
     

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