Maximising sheep numbers

[FlintD]

I know there's a few on this forum in a similar situation so thought I'd ask. d.iainm I think for one. It's a pretty basic question but opinions and differences in the way people run small hill farms would be great.


What's the best way to deal with lambing and tupping when you've got limited in-bye land but grazing rights for several hundred sheep on a mountain?
Hoping to expand and maximise sheep numbers in the future.

 

[JohnGalway]

I'm guessing for tupping you can't keep male sheep away from ewes for 6-8 weeks to do the ram effect once they come down to the in-bye land? Maximising the number of ewes tupped would be the issue from my pov.

As for lambing that's easy, lamb out on the hill with easy lambing breeds and aim for singles. Had a 5kg Texel single out of a blackie ewes on the hill before, missed her at gathering. (No, I'm not claiming Texels are easy lambing!)

 

[Y Fan Wen]

I concur with J G. I would ask how the grazing rights are managed. I presume there is a graziers association. Are tups left with the ewes when they are turned up?

 

[livestock 1]

First thing is identifying your aim?
200%
100%
Then go from there

 

[FlintD]

100% for the mountain ewes, if I later look into running a few mules on the in-bye land then higher for the mules.
Thanks for the advice I will look for information on the people who are actually using the grazing. A large number have rights for small numbers of sheep but few use them.
Its mostly unfenced common land running to around 3000 acres. You wouldn't suggest a mixture of indoor lambing and keeping them on the in-bye land for a few days then?

 

[d.iainm]

I have subdivided the in bye land I have as much as possible. I have put on permenant fencing but you could maybe try electric fencing. Have the ewes in bye for as short a space of time as possible. I feed them on the hill pre lambing then just as they due to lamb take them all in. As they lamb shed them into a seperste field once lambs a week old they get a tick pour on and away to the hill. That is them until shearing. Shear late July and seperate lambs early August. Ewes back to hill until tupping. For tupping they are taken in and rotated around the inbye ground for four weeks then back to the hill.
Gimmers and ewes with twins are kept inbye all summer rotating around the place.
With only having 40 ewes at the moment I'm still trying to build up numbers but it's a slow process here.

 

[egbert]

I know there's a few on this forum in a similar situation so thought I'd ask. d.iainm I think for one. It's a pretty basic question but opinions and differences in the way people run small hill farms would be great.


What's the best way to deal with lambing and tupping when you've got limited in-bye land but grazing rights for several hundred sheep on a mountain?
Hoping to expand and maximise sheep numbers in the future.

A word or two of caution.

Is the common 'under agreement'?
Is the state (Natural England or equivalent) going to force your hand if you increase stocking and - as they might say- damage it by overgrazing?

They can have the effective whip hand by decreeing a common has to reduce stocking , and will withdraw subs from those not adhering to their stipulations.
and under current DEFRA plans, it sounds like that attitude is hardening...rewilding is flavour of the month.
(some of us are going to end up in court with them before long I fear.... EVERYONE be ready to back the poor beggars in the front line)

I would get in touch with your peers on the common before making too big a plan.
It might be that the common needs more stock, and that everyone is happy to see a new shiny face up there....but this is not always the case.
I'm pretty well versed in a lot of it, so don't be afraid to ask.

 

[livestock 1]

Commons here have registered rights with a given number of sheep and followers.

 

[egbert]

Commons here have registered rights with a given number of sheep and followers.

Same just about everywhere, but many commons have far more animals registered on them than can sensibly graze.

(and that's before you get DEFRA/NE demanding a stocking rate which will/does lead to a build up of uneaten growth- they love that, cos they can fanaticise about saplings surviving and the landscape slowly healing itself after centuries of damaging sheep............or as we would say, and history shows, that quickly becomes a major fire hazard.)

 

[Guleesh]

We're in the same situation here - unfenced hill and very little in-bye, we find it very difficult at times to get the balance right. To be honest I don't think there's much in it in terms of profitability between using in-bye ground to support a hill flock or just running a lower input and poorer performing hill flock and an additional in-bye flock.

Biggest breakthrough for us has been better record keeping at lambing, proven ewes that have not needed assistance at previous lambings are reasonably safe to be left on hill to lamb- requiring minimal checks and freeing up precious space for gimmers, twins and ewes with previous lambing problems.

Rotational grazing really helps to stretch the limited in-bye grass and also control intakes- we don't really want gimmers to come off the hill and spend 3 weeks on good in-bye before they lamb. This coming lambing we plan to run leader-follower with twins and leaner ewes up front and gimmers cleaning up behind. It also ensures clean ground for new-born lambs so no danger from disease build up that can sometimes be problematic towards the end of lambing when lambing a lot of sheep in a small space.

 

[egbert]

We're in the same situation here - unfenced hill and very little in-bye, we find it very difficult at times to get the balance right. To be honest I don't think there's much in it in terms of profitability between using in-bye ground to support a hill flock or just running a lower input and poorer performing hill flock and an additional in-bye flock.

Biggest breakthrough for us has been better record keeping at lambing, proven ewes that have not needed assistance at previous lambings are reasonably safe to be left on hill to lamb- requiring minimal checks and freeing up precious space for gimmers, twins and ewes with previous lambing problems.

Rotational grazing really helps to stretch the limited in-bye grass and also control intakes- we don't really want gimmers to come off the hill and spend 3 weeks on good in-bye before they lamb. This coming lambing we plan to run leader-follower with twins and leaner ewes up front and gimmers cleaning up behind. It also ensures clean ground for new-born lambs so no danger from disease build up that can sometimes be problematic towards the end of lambing when lambing a lot of sheep in a small space.

a tip....only keep replacements from these ewes! Only buy tups from someone doing likewise!

 

[Guleesh]

a tip....only keep replacements from these ewes! Only buy tups from someone doing likewise!

Yes, we'd love to just sell them (ewes that need lambing) and replace them but any sheep hefted onto an unfenced hill is very valuable to us, so don't mind lambing them, the plan is that blackface proven ewes get bred pure, blackface with small faults or minor lambing difficulties get crossed and best ewe lambs kept and then all cross ewes and problem sheep get the terminal sire.

A difficulty in obtaining (or maybe affording!) tups from similar systems that are hardy enough for our poor ground has recently led us to start using more of our own tup lambs from the best performing ewes but tbh it's far too early to say how successful that will be or not.

 

[egbert]

Yes, we'd love to just sell them (ewes that need lambing) and replace them but any sheep hefted onto an unfenced hill is very valuable to us, so don't mind lambing them, the plan is that blackface proven ewes get bred pure, blackface with small faults or minor lambing difficulties get crossed and best ewe lambs kept and then all cross ewes and problem sheep get the terminal sire.

A difficulty in obtaining (or maybe affording!) tups from similar systems that are hardy enough for our poor ground has recently led us to start using more of our own tup lambs from the best performing ewes but tbh it's far too early to say how successful that will be or not.

I'm right with you.
good sound policy crossing anything with issues.
I seldom have ewe lambs to spare from the hill flock (also blackies) - although we've been drafting several in recent years, so there is some wiggle room.

I don't record, but anything that gives me a funny look is prone to get a splodge of paint where it matters, or in the case of the inbye flock -cheviots- an extra ear notch. Helps drafting choices

I've often worked home bred tups, and never had a problem with it...and they're ALWAYS the best'uns long term.
It's less safe with bulls - we have hefted cows too- which seem to show up inbreeding issues where sheep don't.

There is a good trade locally for blackie tups off very 'low level management' flocks, although it seems cyclical over the long term.
a flock becomes popular, and tups sought. In response, the owner keeps more tups, farms them 'better', and the flock loses the edge!

 

[spark_28]

my uncle puts a BFL to his blackface sheep and leaves them out on the hill common to lamb. If they are alive come September then the ewe lambs are kept and moved onto his better ground. He left them out on the hill last year as lambs and i think they all survived.

has about 80 BF sheep and they come into the crofts for tupping and shearing and thats about it. he wasnt far off a 100% weaning this year either. He could really push them on a bit further with better management too

 

[FlintD]

This is really helpful stuff thanks everyone. My in-bye land is divided nicely and what there is of it is reasonable quality for the area. Although there are a lot of people on the commons register for my area, most only have rights for a very small number of sheep and very few seem to excerise their rights. I guess it takes interest, money, time, dogs that they don't have. Guleesh how do you manage tupping?
spark28, interesting to hear with the BFL sire. Wouldn't have expected such a success with lambing on the hill

 

[spark_28]

This is really helpful stuff thanks everyone. My in-bye land is divided nicely and what there is of it is reasonable quality for the area. Although there are a lot of people on the commons register for my area, most only have rights for a very small number of sheep and very few seem to excerise their rights. I guess it takes interest, money, time, dogs that they don't have. Guleesh how do you manage tupping?
spark28, interesting to hear with the BFL sire. Wouldn't have expected such a success with lambing on the hill

should of added it wasnt all to the BF. probably around half would of ran with them. but they lambed on the hill and reared them there too with no feed input what so ever. think he got 15-20 ewe lambs last year from them.

if i was him id boost numbers with some BF ewe lambs then only have his gimmers lambing to a a BF and all his proven ewes put to the BFL.

 

[FlintD]

I'm assuming most/all were singles? If any did have twins how did they do?

 

[FlintD]

I have subdivided the in bye land I have as much as possible. I have put on permenant fencing but you could maybe try electric fencing. Have the ewes in bye for as short a space of time as possible. I feed them on the hill pre lambing then just as they due to lamb take them all in. As they lamb shed them into a seperste field once lambs a week old they get a tick pour on and away to the hill. That is them until shearing. Shear late July and seperate lambs early August. Ewes back to hill until tupping. For tupping they are taken in and rotated around the inbye ground for four weeks then back to the hill.
Gimmers and ewes with twins are kept inbye all summer rotating around the place.
With only having 40 ewes at the moment I'm still trying to build up numbers but it's a slow process here.

Is it the blocks you feed them on the hill pre-lambing? Nothing post-lambing?

 

[d.iainm]

Is it the blocks you feed them on the hill pre-lambing? Nothing post-lambing?

I have fed blocks but try to just use bagged feed given each day can be a effort to get them to stay around to take it and not wonder off. Hoping to try a 3 in one feeder on the hill see if I can train them to come to it. Post lambing they are fed while on the in bye but once the lambs a week or so old had pour on they away to the hill.

 

[Skintagain]

Use the in bye to support animals that need it. Lean ewes and twins through summer, weaned lambs later on, tup on it and turn back to hill.

Always nice to have a field of better grass to put something that needs it.