easier said than done if your in buisness with them and they have the controlling stake.How many times has the phrase ' one day all this will be yours' been said ,only for it not to be . How high does the average farmers age have to get before serious coversations within the industry are had about succession planning and legal rights for those that were 'promised'.Haveing read lots about failed succesion ,perhaps there needs to be a discussion on wether npd is a major factor in most cases with the inability of the one in charge to let go ..In a marraige this behaviour would be classed as coertion and grounds for devorce. if only there was an easier way of getting out of narcassistic relationships in farming relationships without the victim becomeing even more victimised by being forced away
Pathalogical Narcassism (Control freak)and the damage it causes to family members
- Thread starter eternal peter pan
- Start date
Coximus
Member
Replying to your earlier post -
Yes I have experience of them - Im a pretty blunt sh!t happens sort of guy - dont really care what anyone thinks of me, make more mistakes than I get right, and call bs when I see it - Thats dangerous to them, and they will try and isolate you as you pierce their illusions. I was told by the ex partner of one he had been diagnosed in prison a decade before - he genuinely had no insight into what he was doing - everything was about his victim status and need to be center of anything good or bad, just center. After that realized a family member was one - but the vulnerable type - histrionic, but again feeding the ego.
Generally the intelligent Narcs evolve to manage, often having some insight and try to manage their behavior, who knows whether they care but by toning down the excess they can continue for longer, as they have some instinctive realisation that if they allienate everyone they have nothing.
The rest of them, sooner or later, the world sees them for what they are, and leaves them alone, they end up obese, depressed, suicidal attention seeking without focus, from crime to outright blunt bullying and all subtlety goes. From what I saw looking in on a friends imploding world, they had to watch a narc spouse bascially go mad, because the mundane normality of life just didnt have them centre stage.
and this one -
Ignor the succession and business for a moment - thats just more of the fog that makes NPD so hard to deal with, the Narc will wrap that around them, its just circumstance - if it was a council house on the dole, they would weaponise something else.
Letting go and control is not just NPD. It can be stubornness, emotional attachment etc- all legitimate reasons.
The hall mark of NPD is supply, ego and a total disregard for everything around them that is not feeding their need for the ego to bed fed.
You could take a 2000 acre farm of a narc, and they would be surprisingly resilient as long as they had an audience - infact it would probably benefit them as they could play victim, and could feed their supply with the narrative. Thats why their is always something happening, usually dramatic around them.
I think your almost in the loop of trying to map the problem onto the circumstances - which plays into their hands and sadly is why people stick it out.
If your aware your being played by a narc. your only good choice is to walk away - forget succession etc, because what price will it come at? IF it ever comes at all?
Your comparison to a marriage is one thing - but ultimately the farm is owned by someone and its their decision on succession, not yours, irregardelss of your experience of their behavior - I really feel for the predicament you imply your in - as the farm is obviously being used as a tool of control against you, but it would be a car, a job, a shop, a business, health or something else to anyone whos not a farmer. and It does not change the fact your better off away from it.
- Location
- Fife
I think I know her. not my ex girlfriend is it?
its not my situation that im waiting for succesion ...Im past that now i know the reality of the situation .i am just asking the questions to find out how widespread the condition is in older generation farmers and hope to enlighten some out there who cant work out what is going on around them ...I was truly enlightened when i stumbled across the whole npd subject because up until then ,i thought the narc in my situation was phsycotic and now there is a genuine explanation for their behavior The best way to describe it is a combination of the worst bits of a toddler and geriatric combined into one personality .im actually surprised, as to how many people are now recogniseing this personality condition in situations where people wont let go and the harm that gets inflicted in the reciepients of their actions
Coximus
Member
True but also be careful, narcissistic behavior does not mean a narc. Alot of older people behave narcissistically and its only natural, humans become more resistant to change as they age, its a simple fact of life, and that equates to resistance to letting go too - everything from shopping habits, business and social and political views - I also find that alot of folk over 65 come from an age where life was fare more prodicable and change slower and less contentious in all areas, and my own grandparents have articulated it as quite scary for them, the world they understand and know is dying around them - My farm is made with my money not theirs, but they still try and stamp a foot on the way they would of done things, its only natural.
- Location
- Penzance
hopefully not haha
Thick Farmer
Member
- Location
- West Wales
Happened to me. Luckily I figured out what I was dealing with, managed to engineer the situation so that they wanted to leave and then paid them off. It was a stressful time but well worth it.
there are probably hundreds ,if not thousands of family buisinesses with this problem. what i have found out since this situation occured to myself, that there is very little help out there or info on how to deal /process /get out of these situations .there is to much sideing with the narc as they generally are in charge of the show and the professionals (ie accountants etc) usually go with what they are told to do to retain the buisness given to then ...The farming charities arn't experienced enough to offer advice although this is changing as awarness is growing in this particular problem.Solicitor can offer good advice but at a large financial cost .The nfu goes with the member who is usually the narc .perhaps you could share a bit more light on how you got out With this forum being more annonomus ,others speak more freely then they would if on a platform like facebook
Coximus
Member
Interesting insight - but you dont address ownership - If the person behaving narcissistically is the legal owner - then heu whom is paying the piper calls the shots -
The big lesson of this thread, I would personally take, is when you find yourself in a situation like this leave - especially if you are not an owner or business partner - and even if you are, weigh up is it worth the destruction you put yourself through to get anywhere.
Its not nice letting these people get what they want - but they are incredibly resilient and will just keep going with no thought to themselves regardless.
How about the rise in propritry estople cases where someone, who has in essence ,been led to understand that by devoteing themselves to a life of farming on a family farm, with all the sacrifices/hours /years plus some benifits, finds themselves thrown out or pushed out due to narcassistic pressures .Perhaps they have finally woken up to the reality of their situation and the resulting issues ariseing from it . We know live in 2023 not 10-20-30 years ago when people can just be cast aside and the concept of just walking away from what is in effect an abuse. it seems that there should be a way (nowadays) of addressing narc abuse within a family situation without the seemingly only course of action being to walk away .This behaviour trait is punished in a marrage as coecive behavior and a spouse can get out .One day the same hopefully will happen to abused members in these situations. for anyone finding themselves in this situation should be able to get some help/advice/guidence from somewhere ..I have yet to find it other than from others who have been through it
Coximus
Member
Youve answered your own question;
Proprietary estopel cases are perfectly fine where its clear what has happened - you should always document everything work related anyway - and if you feel this is happening then documents even more so your better protected.
Lawful harassment - Narc behavior is the master of this, using multiple individually lawful acts to cause harassment and distress and loss. This is basically your tool for that.
Unlawful harassment - Similar but where they cross the line, many do, with deliberate emotional abuse.
Education is the key. But personally haveing been exposed to it - I would never put myself through years of it. I would just leave, and let them rot. Its a fight where any victory is phyrric, and so only worth fighting if your in a corner.
Perhaps i have answered some of my own questions but your response has added information that i for one was not aware of ....Hopefully this will come of use for anyone who is also unlucky enough to be in this situation .Info and knowledge is key It can be hard to find info on this subject in farming situations though, because few people speak about it even if they come out the other side better off Plenty of information about narcs in relationships though
Thick Farmer
Member
- Location
- West Wales
In my case I stumbled upon an article about narcissism (having never heard of it previously). I then researched it thoroughly and realised that there was a blueprint for how narcs react to situations. Basically, I had found a textbook for how to predict the narcs behaviour.
I also did a LOT of research on proprietary estoppel. I looked into the Davies v Davies case in detail along with the Habberfield v Habberfield case. Both of these were the most relevant at the time.
in the end, good homework, determination, honesty and perseverance (along with borrowing a shitload of money) was what sorted the job out.
My advice to anyone and everyone is to make sure you have succession sorted out. People have short memories and they tend to ’forget’ things as they age.
I also did a LOT of research on proprietary estoppel. I looked into the Davies v Davies case in detail along with the Habberfield v Habberfield case. Both of these were the most relevant at the time.
in the end, good homework, determination, honesty and perseverance (along with borrowing a shitload of money) was what sorted the job out.
My advice to anyone and everyone is to make sure you have succession sorted out. People have short memories and they tend to ’forget’ things as they age.
I have watched one of the estople cases livestreamed (it can be found somewhere online ) . What i took from it was the constant cross refrencing to other cases of similar cases that had gone before hand.. this should ,as the number of cases grow ,hopefully leads to there being a greater understanding of everyones rights , legally if they find themselves in this position .. Perhaps an estople case will become simpler ,less traumatic and cheaper ...Its similar to a divorce ,when one party has been abused by the other> there are multitudes of divorce lawyers out there with almost a blueprint for proceedings . The agro mainly comes with alocation of assets . In estople cases ,there needs to be proof of everything so infanitly more costly /difficult and offputting . plus the fact that the victim usualy buy the very nature of being controlled wont have the funds to proceed anyway
I have first hand experience of this.. Worked on the farm for no pay, no social life and not even in the business partnership let alone any land... He says the farm is his, yet we've all been working to pay a mortgage for 20 years....
Cant just walk away from my mother and brother
Cant just walk away from my mother and brother
make you wander how in 2023 this is still happening to us when there are so many other abusive situations that there are legal actions that can be taken to prevent these types of situations
Thick Farmer
Member
- Location
- West Wales
How old are you and how old are your parents?
has anyone out there used npd in any form of litigation as a reason for explaining certain persons actions / behaviours as an explanation for their toxic behavior. Would it be possible to diognose someone with the condition without a medical examination
Coximus
Member
not likley and what your effectively saying is "person x has this condition, or I believe so, and as such should be punished" which legally speaking is a dark and odious place to go.
In litigation, as someone who has taken people to court for not paying (I dont wait more than 14 days for my money ever - if theirs a reason thats honest people always say) - I can say the most importan thing is stick to facts.
Bullet points of events.
Describe the persons conduct, not the person.
Describe their actions and what they have done that is unreasonable - not that they are.
It is for a judge to say the person is unreasonable.
As for diagnosing - not gonna happen, a narc by definition cant see or accept they are.
The good news is their behaviour tends to be weird and illogical and erratic when cornered and faced with the truth.
thats sort of what im getting at .If the condition created eratic and toxic behavior, then asigning a name /title to it might not help factually in a court proceeding but if enough people got to recognise its existense as a personality trait ,then down the line perhaps ,finding solutions would be easier for persons who come across this situation. Totally agree with a diagnosis on a professional level but being able to say that whoever is being victimised would be able to say that the behavior that has been used against them has been narcassistic Rather than haveing to explain every little aspect of strange behavior . on a comparable note ,it is easy to show someone is racist or sexist or even coercive but to explain narcassistic behavior, is quite difficult because its more an like extream case of multiple traits rolled into one and not seen my many others aside from the target