Red Tractor - Manure Heaps

[Northeastfarmer]

I guessed that, but you presumably get a copy of the new ones sent to you/ put online before you have the audit ?

No idea...it goes in the bin

 

[Highland Mule]

No idea...it goes in the bin

Serves you right if you get kicked out of the club then, if you can't be bothered checking compliance against the rules.

 

[Cowcalf]

Only the stuff that comes out of the bulls.

I've chosen not to be FA, and manage fine without. I do spend a lot of my professional life verifying compliance with various rules though, and would never consider entertaining an audit or inspection unless I had checked myself against the rules in advance.

must be a real thrill to be perfect !!

 

[Shughie McFee]

am i missing something ? why would you want to measure the temperature of a muck heap ? and what would you use to measure it ? not the kitchen thermometer ? ?
high enough temp to kill weed seeds ??‍

 

[Tarw Coch]

Serves you right if you get kicked out of the club then, if you can't be bothered checking compliance against the rules.

You really don’t have much idea how it works do you, they ain’t going to kick you out for anything other than the most serious breech, they want your subscription every year.
Most non conformances have a rectification period, it really is no big deal not getting a full pass plus most of us get the feeling the harder you try to get things right the harder they try to find something wrong to show they’re doing their job.
Every year I put less effort into passing, just make sure the basics are right, they find a few non conformances which are usually quick and easy to put right and jobs s good un.
When I look round and see the state of some places that are farm assured I really see no point in putting too much effort in.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

You really don’t have much idea how it works do you, they ain’t going to kick you out for anything other than the most serious breech, they want your subscription every year.
Most non conformances have a rectification period, it really is no big deal not getting a full pass plus most of us get the feeling the harder you try to get things right the harder they try to find something wrong to show they’re doing their job.
Every year I put less effort into passing, just make sure the basics are right, they find a few non conformances which are usually quick and easy to put right and jobs s good un.
When I look round and see the state of some places that are farm assured I really see no point in putting too much effort in.

Well said

 

[fieldfarmer]

I was with a client recently that had a non conformance on his Red Tractor inspection as he doesn’t record the temperature of his muck heaps (temporary in field ones), doesn’t aerate them, and also they must be kept for 6 months before spreading. This is pig FYM.

Can anyone tell me why the treatment of a manure heap over a km from a grain store or any livestock has any influence on the quality of the product leaving the farm? Or is this just to keep jobs for the boys @Guy Smith ?

Can anyone find this ? I have no pigs but out of interest just skimmed through the pig rules and found nothing relevant but may have missed it.

 

[Midnight plough boy]

Can anyone find this ? I have no pigs but out of interest just skimmed through the pig rules and found nothing relevant but may have missed it.

 

[fieldfarmer]

That's just the typed part by the assessor , I believe what he has referred to there is for imported compost / green waste etc, not fym. I would have asked him to print the number of the none compliance on the sheet.

 

[ollie989898]

That inspector is making up the rules as he goes along. What 'pathogen' does this stuff contain? The safe application to land matrix was designed for sewage sludge I thought?

You are telling me that someone taking manure straight out of a shed and spreading it is in non-compliance?

 

[Exfarmer]

I was on a farm recently where I spotted a very large manure heap in the corner of a field.
knowing the land is heavy and the difficult wet autumn and he is a good friend, I expressed concerns that the heap at the bottom a of a large field near a water course was asking for trouble.
he explained that it was well within the rules and a recent inspection had given him full marks.
the heap of possibly 500 tonnes or more, was at the bottom of a 100 acre field with tramlines running down to that point. It was probably 50 metres from a sizeable watercourse. It was to be fair a good site for him as easily accessible but in my view about the worst place to site if you are concerned about nitrate getting into water courses.
yes it may meet the rules but they must have been designed by someone with absolutely no knowledge of how water flows, ie. downhill

 

[radar]

Could it be that it is muck destined for use on an organic unit? Went to a talk by Polybell Farms the other night and they import 6000 tons of muck onto their organic farm, and to comply with organic regs it needs to be heat monitored, turned and stored for 6 months before spreading.

 

[fieldfarmer]

That inspector is making up the rules as he goes along. What 'pathogen' does this stuff contain? The safe application to land matrix was designed for sewage sludge I thought?

You are telling me that someone taking manure straight out of a shed and spreading it is in non-compliance?

They try to, had one here say I couldn't sell any grain until some "harbourage " for rats had been removed, no rats present or visible signs off, just harbourage,( a pile of scrap and general crap ) fine you might think , but that farm was beef only and three and a half miles from my nearest grain store, rung head office, told them what I thought of the guy, they removed the non compliance and said they would re train him.

 

[Princess Pooper]

dunno about pig assurance but this is not a requirement fo cattle muck. Fenced off to prevent stock getting on- yes . The heaping up as small as possible mentioned above is an NVZ requirement

 

[Wombat]

As above I cannot find it on the cattle one

 

[Highland Mule]

You really don’t have much idea how it works do you, they ain’t going to kick you out for anything other than the most serious breech, they want your subscription every year.
Most non conformances have a rectification period, it really is no big deal not getting a full pass plus most of us get the feeling the harder you try to get things right the harder they try to find something wrong to show they’re doing their job.
Every year I put less effort into passing, just make sure the basics are right, they find a few non conformances which are usually quick and easy to put right and jobs s good un.
When I look round and see the state of some places that are farm assured I really see no point in putting too much effort in.

You're right, I do have no idea - I'm not FA and aim to never be so.

Looking at the photo, would I be correct in thinking that the HACCP is a document written by the farmer (copied from some generic one perhaps?) If I am reading the NC correctly, perhaps the farmer's own HACCP has some requirement for a minimum temperature or aeration rate, and he has effectively written himself into his own problem. If that's the case, it makes your strategy of having the appearance of putting in less effort) all the more sensible (although I would still want to do a self check in advance, but that's the sort of person I am).

must be a real thrill to be perfect !!

Nope, just an unhealthily balance of OCD and professional paranoia - it's one of the reasons I'm not FA.

 

[Midnight plough boy]

Could it be that it is muck destined for use on an organic unit? Went to a talk by Polybell Farms the other night and they import 6000 tons of muck onto their organic farm, and to comply with organic regs it needs to be heat monitored, turned and stored for 6 months before spreading.

No, standard mixed unit.

 

[Princess Pooper]

I was with a client recently that had a non conformance on his Red Tractor inspection as he doesn’t record the temperature of his muck heaps (temporary in field ones), doesn’t aerate them, and also they must be kept for 6 months before spreading. This is pig FYM.

Can anyone tell me why the treatment of a manure heap over a km from a grain store or any livestock has any influence on the quality of the product leaving the farm? Or is this just to keep jobs for the boys @Guy Smith ?

Right, @Midnight plough boy I've been looking into this. Does he grow any fresh produce? Common sense and thinking about it led me to look at the red tractor fresh produce rules as obviously the risk situation is slightly different where muck is concerned if it is going onto fruit or veg land (eg salmonella risk from pig fym). And yes, in the fresh produce standards, Appendix EC.m https://assurance.redtractor.org.uk/contentfiles/Farmers-7058.pdf?_=637070148432215561 there are specific requirements for muck heap management, including composting temperatures and monitoring. This does make sense from a risk perspective. So, either the farmer in question has some veg grown on the land which is Red Tractor assured, and it relates to that inspection, or he has been audited under the wrong standard. Given that veg land and pigs often go together, the former is quite likely. If the latter, then a formal complaint. So all you pig farmers stand down, it's a fresh produce requirement if using fym.

 

[Wombat]

You're right, I do have no idea - I'm not FA and aim to never be so.

Looking at the photo, would I be correct in thinking that the HACCP is a document written by the farmer (copied from some generic one perhaps?) If I am reading the NC correctly, perhaps the farmer's own HACCP has some requirement for a minimum temperature or aeration rate, and he has effectively written himself into his own problem. If that's the case, it makes your strategy of having the appearance of putting in less effort) all the more sensible (although I would still want to do a self check in advance, but that's the sort of person I am).



Nope, just an unhealthily balance of OCD and professional paranoia - it's one of the reasons I'm not FA.

I go through mine religiously every time but there seems to be some slightly different interpretations via inspectors.

These kind of things keep me up at night but regardless we all make mistakes.

 

[Midnight plough boy]

Right, @Midnight plough boy I've been looking into this. Does he grow any fresh produce? Common sense and thinking about it led me to look at the red tractor fresh produce rules as obviously the risk situation is slightly different where muck is concerned if it is going onto fruit or veg land (eg salmonella risk from pig fym). And yes, in the fresh produce standards, Appendix EC.m https://assurance.redtractor.org.uk/contentfiles/Farmers-7058.pdf?_=637070148432215561 there are specific requirements for muck heap management, including composting temperatures and monitoring. This does make sense from a risk perspective. So, either the farmer in question has some veg grown on the land which is Red Tractor assured, and it relates to that inspection, or he has been audited under the wrong standard. Given that veg land and pigs often go together, the former is quite likely. If the latter, then a formal complaint. So all you pig farmers stand down, it's a fresh produce requirement if using fym.

Yes, he has potatoes in the rotation.