Riparian ownership

[rhsmyth]

Couldn’t find an answer in the existing forums which surprised me but I wondered if anyone could assist.

We have always kept our ditches, hedges and rights of way in good condition the best we can. Over the year we have struggled with adjoining residential properties not clearing ditches and tended to drain them another way if we can normally through a larger field drainage system.

In one place we have a culvert which may be blocked and causing flooding to a residential property. I have sympathy with the householder but reluctant to get involved. As far as I am concerned the culvert is not in my ownership. It is clearly separated from the land with the title and long with what seems both sides of the ditch.

The older generation has recently departed and the exact knowledge with him. I seem to recall he always said it was the councils job to clear that ditch/culvert, but with speaking with them today they say it has always been the landowners responsibility. If there was a way to prove the council have always maintained the ditch historically that they are responsible?

It ain’t going to be an easy solution as the culvert is only open on the upper (flooded) the next 3-400m is piped around a number of residential properties which is defiantly not in my control.

Thoughts or changes in legislation are very welcome.

 

[Brisel]

What does the Land Registry say? Your boundary will be marked on that though it's not always accurate.

My knowledge of boundary law concerning ditches is not great. Where there is a ditch and a hedge on one side, the boundary lies under the hedge so the landowner on the ditch side can clean it out & have the spoil on their side. Where there is no hedge, the boundary normally runs down the centre of the ditch though hedges come and go, and watercourses get altered/straightened. Policy in this respect can vary with region too. That's not much help to you!

 

[rhsmyth]

Land registry would suggest it is not our problem. I attach an extract showing ours and the neighbours titles. It is clear our title does not extend as far as the neighbours and I suggest there is a genuine historic reason for that. I don't have any knowledge of the historic maintenance which I think is the key aspect. NB the culvert is the approximate black line.

However is members has similarly been caught by council's insisting works are done, even though historically the work was done by a public authority I will get on and do it.

 

[wilfholme]

What does the Land Registry say? Your boundary will be marked on that though it's not always accurate.

My knowledge of boundary law concerning ditches is not great. Where there is a ditch and a hedge on one side, the boundary lies under the hedge so the landowner on the ditch side can clean it out & have the spoil on their side. Where there is no hedge, the boundary normally runs down the centre of the ditch though hedges come and go, and watercourses get altered/straightened. Policy in this respect can vary with region too. That's not much help to you!

My understanding of boundaries is that the ditch is the boundary ie dug at the outside edge of the field so that the hedge was then planted on the inside bank. this worked fine when the ditch was cleaned out by hand but now more difficult when you need to be on your neighbours land with a digger. Thats how it works round here anyway

 

[Bongodog]

IME the first defence from local council staff is "not our problem phone someone else" A former leader of our district council got so fed up with this that he made department heads report to his office whenever such instances came to light. On that basis I would take any initial statement from them to that effect with a pinch of salt. Go back and ask for proof that they aren't responsible,they should have a map of all the awarded watercourses in the District.
The culvert you show on the map, any idea why it was installed and its length ? No landowner would spend money unless it gave them something in return. We have one watercourse in the village that alternates between open ditch and culvert, the culverts were all installed by the County Council when they widened the road and there was insufficient land available in some places.

 

[Fish]

My understanding of boundaries is that the ditch is the boundary ie dug at the outside edge of the field so that the hedge was then planted on the inside bank. this worked fine when the ditch was cleaned out by hand but now more difficult when you need to be on your neighbours land with a digger. Thats how it works round here anyway

That is exactly how it works in this part of North Yorkshire.

 

[yellowbelly]

My understanding of boundaries is that the ditch is the boundary ie dug at the outside edge of the field so that the hedge was then planted on the inside bank. this worked fine when the ditch was cleaned out by hand but now more difficult when you need to be on your neighbours land with a digger. Thats how it works round here anyway

That is exactly how it works in this part of North Yorkshire.

The saying round here is "Hedge takes the dyke".

 

[___\0/___]

Might be worth telling the guy in the house that if he wants to get someone in to fix it then carry on as the council are not going to do anything. Personally I wouldn't touch it.

 

[rhsmyth]

Thank for the responses. I have asked the council to clear the culvert through their online system and see what happens.

I am certainly aware of the hedge/ditch rule which comes from common law. The principle being when a ditch was dug on a boundary the soil was put on your own land and a hedge typically planted. This principle does not apply in many instances including the point here where a channel may have been dug next a road and this land was 'acquired' by a public authority. Land can be sold to different boundaries, but over time the knowledge disappears and we revert to common law again.

I will leave it with the Council for now and then as @Bongodog suggests request the map of what water courses were transferred to them.

 

[Derryn]

IME the first defence from local council staff is "not our problem phone someone else" A former leader of our district council got so fed up with this that he made department heads report to his office whenever such instances came to light. On that basis I would take any initial statement from them to that effect with a pinch of salt. Go back and ask for proof that they aren't responsible,they should have a map of all the awarded watercourses in the District.
The culvert you show on the map, any idea why it was installed and its length ? No landowner would spend money unless it gave them something in return. We have one watercourse in the village that alternates between open ditch and culvert, the culverts were all installed by the County Council when they widened the road and there was insufficient land available in some places.

Completely agree. Their first response is always no, partly because they simply don't know.

 

[Exfarmer]

What does the Land Registry say? Your boundary will be marked on that though it's not always accurate.

My knowledge of boundary law concerning ditches is not great. Where there is a ditch and a hedge on one side, the boundary lies under the hedge so the landowner on the ditch side can clean it out & have the spoil on their side. Where there is no hedge, the boundary normally runs down the centre of the ditch though hedges come and go, and watercourses get altered/straightened. Policy in this respect can vary with region too. That's not much help to you!

This advice is totally wrong!
where there is a ditch and hedge , the boundary is normally the top of the bank furthest from the hedge, unless clearly stated in the deeds. So the ditch on the far side of a hedge belongs with the hedge and the land on the other side of the hedge. This has been confirmed in English courts. The rules may be different in Scotland. This does not neccessarily apply beside a road when generally a roadside ditch is part of the highway, even if it is still the property of the neighbouring owner.
boundaries veryrarely run along the centre of a ditch or hedgeline!

 

[Brisel]

Oh well, my third sentence did state that my knowledge wasn't that good - at least it flushed out some opinions and experiences!

 

[Exfarmer]

IME the first defence from local council staff is "not our problem phone someone else" A former leader of our district council got so fed up with this that he made department heads report to his office whenever such instances came to light. On that basis I would take any initial statement from them to that effect with a pinch of salt. Go back and ask for proof that they aren't responsible,they should have a map of all the awarded watercourses in the District.
The culvert you show on the map, any idea why it was installed and its length ? No landowner would spend money unless it gave them something in return. We have one watercourse in the village that alternates between open ditch and culvert, the culverts were all installed by the County Council when they widened the road and there was insufficient land available in some places.

edited
This is so frequently the case, the old diches were filled in by dropping a concrete pipe in the bottom . With NO provision for field or road drainage. There has been no maintenance since with the resulting ponding everywhere.

 

[Dry Rot]

I am in Scotland and was interested to discover that when domestic properties got flooded, the council became involved through "the flood team".

That apart, my first question would be, who created the road? A local road was created during WW2 so oil could be transported from the docks to airfields. Clearly, this was taken over by the local authority after the war. The ditch along one side of the road was dug for the benefit of the road so it is not unreasonable that the council should clean it out. There are culverts in this ditch to allow access to fields and properties, so it is also logical that they too are the responsibility of the council.

If no one can remember who is responsible, sometimes some reasoning will get you there. Otherwise, the lawyers just make money. Sometimes it isn't worth fighting. What's it going to cost?

 

[teslacoils]

I am in Scotland and was interested to discover that when domestic properties got flooded, the council became involved through "the flood team".

That apart, my first question would be, who created the road? A local road was created during WW2 so oil could be transported from the docks to airfields. Clearly, this was taken over by the local authority after the war. The ditch along one side of the road was dug for the benefit of the road so it is not unreasonable that the council should clean it out. There are culverts in this ditch to allow access to fields and properties, so it is also logical that they too are the responsibility of the council.

If no one can remember who is responsible, sometimes some reasoning will get you there. Otherwise, the lawyers just make money. Sometimes it isn't worth fighting. What's it going to cost?

Yes. Water is everyone's responsibility. I was talking to a lady recently in a village where more decking, hard standing, and a lack of maintaining means the water just pisses down the road. I suggested that even if the drains were cleared it might be better for the village to get together, all chuck in £150 or whatever, and find another route for some water. Better than whining for years and periodic flooding.

 

[Pan mixer]

The default position of the Council here is that the adjacent landowner is responsible for roadside ditches and culverts.

The Council will only take responsibility for culverts under the Highway - and then they will try to pass the buck to the EA or the local Water Co.

 

[Exfarmer]

The default position of the Council here is that the adjacent landowner is responsible for roadside ditches and culverts.

The Council will only take responsibility for culverts under the Highway - and then they will try to pass the buck to the EA or the local Water Co.

if the stated width of the highway does not cover the ditch then it will be the neighbouring landowner.

 

[Willywoodpecker]

A culvert, under the road, is blocking the flow of water (pure volume), and causing huge flooding problems. Having had a site meeting and asked them to pump, to allow water to flow to IDB drain, point blank refused. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[teslacoils]

A culvert, under the road, is blocking the flow of water (pure volume), and causing huge flooding problems. Having had a site meeting and asked them to pump, to allow water to flow to IDB drain, point blank refused. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Could it be cleaned out without too much difficulties? Single track road with 12" culvert, with ditches both sides a different proposition to 6" culvert under two lane, S class road.

 

[Willywoodpecker]

Could it be cleaned out without too much difficulties? Single track road with 12" culvert, with ditches both sides a different proposition to 6" culvert under two lane, S class road.

Difference in water level of at least 4ft, culvert unable to cope with the volume of water, possibly 8ft deep at dammed side.