Robert Forster: Climate change, an agricultural perspective

JP1

Member
Livestock Farmer
Climate change: An agricultural overview.

An informed summary of the problems facing the UK, and then the world, is impossible unless it is acknowledged that climate change impact dominates the thinking of noisy, sometimes self-promoting, sections of the wealthy western middle class much more than it does elsewhere.

In many cases this preoccupation appears to be fashionable. In others it is perhaps a reflection of society’s unease with itself, because the doomsday style angst it typifies has waxed and waned at regular intervals throughout history.

A recent example was the appearance of a hole in the ozone layer 20 years ago, said to be due in part to CFC release from domestic fridges, which was seen as cataclysmic too?

Nothing is currently being said about the ozone layer so presumably the hole no longer exists or if it still does it has been accepted it offers no threat.

Climate change attracts similar froth and so it is important to identify what is genuinely concerning and what is not.

There can be no doubt temperatures are rising and that with this comes the threat of rising sea levels, population displacement, and a range of global resource crises that may ultimately be supremely focussed on life security essentials like food and water supplies.

However this has to be seen in context. Geology, for example, makes clear that a vast range of forces, including huge temperature shifts, have dominated the evolution on our planet – and there is no reason to suppose they will not continue to do so.

Human beings, who built their first towns just 3,500 or so years ago, are so self-centred they tend to measure life on earth in millennia - sometimes just decades – instead of a succession of easily identifiable million year spans.

They forget that Scotland (for example) was under an ice sheet just 12,000 years ago and its disappearance not only gave agriculturalists more room to expand into, which made it easier for the UK to develop, the accompanying lift in sea level created important new geo-political landmarks like the English Channel as well.

So it is no surprise that the earth is currently continuing to move through one of its many periodic warm cycles.

The questions this has provoked are:

# Is there a human contribution?

# And if there is can this warming process be slowed down?


When considering these it must however be accepted that the current warming trend will not be reversed unless or until cyclical factors infinitely beyond human control begin to reassert themselves at an as yet unknown point of time – although it may be possible to slow it down if there is a human contribution and this can be limited.

Objective (that means not self-interested) informants suggest that a lift in carbon emissions, combined with simultaneous release of other greenhouse gases (GHGs), as a result of human industrial activity began less than 400 years ago and these are accelerating the current warming cycle.

This prognosis is accepted by the majority of politicians and opinion formers who dominate policy/decision making within the industrial/western world so not unnaturally they want to encourage remedial action that will, they hope, slow the process down.

Foremost among their suggestions are calls for a reduction in coal burning and animal production coupled with encouragement for greater adoption of alternative energy production using solar, wind, or wave resource.

It is obvious that this shift has been seized on by freebooters and speculators which includes vegan interests that have recognised an opportunity to either promote themselves, or become wealthy, and have added their self-interest to the noise.

Increased focus on renewable energy sources is admirable so my attention is focussed on the contradictions raised by attacks on ruminant agriculture and prevailing attitudes that pay too little attention to simple food security.

Just as it is essential to acknowledge that earth is moving through one of its regular, and unavoidable, warming cycles it must also be accepted that the human population is expanding, and will continue to expand until something cataclysmic (this could be a nuclear explosion or the earth being hit by a huge meteor) gets in its way.

If, in the meantime, sections of this growing population do not have access to predictable food, drink, and energy supplies they will continue to migrate to other countries which they hope will be able to fulfil their needs.

This will further challenge the stability of the world’s political systems and could ultimately put them under so much strain they collapse.

The result would be descent into innumerable internecine conflicts with occupation of productive land and access to water as the prize.

This means continuing expansion of global food production, and provision of the range of products that are essential to the maintenance of a healthy (balanced) diet, are fundamental to global stability too.

This truth is often ignored at national level which is why agricultural policy makers within the UK and elsewhere must concentrate on raising knowledge centred on two increasingly important areas of debate.

# World-wide, appreciation of the ability of grass pasture to absorb (sequester) carbon released into the atmosphere.

# Acceptance of objective evidence that undermines an inflamed, assertion that ruminants (the source of milk, beef, lamb, wool and leather) contribute to methane release that is dramatically harmful in climatic terms.


There is a popular view that trees but not grass sequester carbon – hence repeated calls to reduce grassland areas and substitute it with trees.

This contradicts accepted scientific opinion that grassland is an effective carbon retainer.

The advantages of pursuing policies that encourage this retention, by preserving as much grassland as possible to produce meat and other animal products, have still to bed in.

Among the advantages of maintaining grass cover is recognition among objective scientists that ploughing land to produce more arable crops for human consumption results in the temporary exposure of soil to air – and during this period carbon, the principal GHG, is, along with nitrous oxide, inevitably and avoidably released.

There is therefore a strong case for humanity to continue, for the preservation of its long term health and wellbeing, with the pursuit of mixed diets in which the best possible balance between these demands and an equilibrium between animal production and crop production is identified, developed and then maintained.

It should be emphasised that the surge in crop production, encouraged by the vegan lobby among others, would be counterproductive in carbon release terms because more soil would be exposed and less food would be produced from carbon retaining grass.

It must however also be accepted that carbon emissions from exposed soil could be reduced, perhaps substantially, if more crops were grown in fields that have not been ploughed but direct drilled instead.

A common, and incoherent, response to this truth, often by the same lobbyists who make clear their vegan interests, is that direct drilling should be avoided because the glyphosate weed killer that must be applied before a field is direct drilled is carcinogenic and/or harms the environment in a number of vaguely expressed ways.

Objective science contradicts these views maintaining glyphosate is not only effective but safe too.

Even so anti-science sentiment, which counterintuitively also includes GMO crops which could include varieties that are beneficial in GHG reduction terms, can dominate the response of many the middle class climate change lobbyists dominant within developed, western culture.

Cattle especially are pilloried by this group for producing methane – and this has also been specifically seized on by the noisy vegan lobby as well as sympathetic climate change activists who see an advantage in reinforcing this contention.

The species is without doubt methane positive but policy makers should publicly reinforce information already available which demonstrates that the disadvantages of methane production are more than countered by the bovine contribution to international food reserves and the carbon sequestration properties of the grass they consume.

It might also help if the contradictory nature of many of the arguments advanced by a section of climate change activists was made public by government neutrals too.

Summary.

Current climate change considerations within the UK are not sufficiently comprehensive.

Critically they seek a detailed, but isolated, UK response and take too little account of climate change pressures being overwhelmingly global.

For example, and specifically, beef produced in the UK already has a carbon footprint 2.5 times lower than the world average and this is expected to reduce further.

This means that if beef production within the UK was curbed by planting more trees, and beef was instead imported to satisfy domestic consumer demand, that this beef would have a heavier carbon footprint than the beef it replaced – which means curbing domestic production is, in carbon footprint mitigation terms, pure nonsense.

It should also be acknowledged that if less beef and other meat is produced in the UK and more is imported this would put unnecessary additional pressure on global supplies which, as has already been argued, is counterproductive in world stability terms because human populations have always drifted away from countries where food is scarce towards countries where it is more plentiful so generating avoidable political instability.

This being the case the overwhelming ambition of policy makers in the UK should be to encourage a unified global response to climate change and to model its domestic considerations so that negative impact on other countries through UK action is minimised if not avoided altogether.

It would also be constructive if the UK adopted a long term view and paid more attention to countering the negative impact of climate change in a range of other arenas including lifts in sea level.

Responses to the latter could be as simple as legislating against constructing new roads and buildings on land that can be flooded.

Others, and it is accepted that there are an infinity of these, could include encouragement for more food production within the UK even though some low lying, and disproportionately high producing land, could be swamped in the meantime.

The latter contradicts long established government inclinations, except in times of crisis, to rely heavily on imports – so would require primary reconsideration.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Forster was a livestock journalist with Farmers Guardian before going freelance in the 1990s when he broadcast on livestock issues for BBC Farming Today. He joined the National Beef Association in 1998 and retired three years ago aged 73.”
 

primmiemoo

Member
Location
Devon
May I point out something for clarification, pls?

It's Mr Forster's mention of CFCs and the Ozone Layer in his third and fourth sentences:

I asked a scientist (a real, genuine research chemist sort of scientist, rtd.) a question about CFCs only recently.
CFCs did and still do pose a threat to the protective shield against most of the Sun's ultraviolet rays that is the Earth's Ozone Layer - their "corrosive" (sorry, I've forgotten the scientist's term) properties being the cause of the hole in the protective gas over Antarctica which was first described in the 1980s.

The speed with which International laws were passed for a global ban of manufacture and use of CFCs was because there were alternative chemicals available to replace them with relatively no upset in the system.

Thanks to that rapid global response, the Ozone Layer is back to a coverage that is working to protect Earth against UV.
It is under constant monitoring. Illegal production of CFC was detected recently emanating from China, so there must be constant vigilance to maintain it.

The Ozone Layer and its protection isn't part of the present crisis relating to excess CO2 in the atmosphere arising from its release from fossil stores.

Other than that, it's ? from here to Mr Forster.
 

Campani

Member
Nothing is currently being said about the ozone layer so presumably the hole no longer exists or if it still does it has been accepted it offers no threat.

Stopped reading at this sentence. Even the quickest of googles will tell you that CFC's were banned internationally and because of that the ozone repaired itself.
 

primmiemoo

Member
Location
Devon
Stopped reading at this sentence. Even the quickest of googles will tell you that CFC's were banned internationally and because of that the ozone repaired itself.

Yup, but sometimes google leads astray. Not with CFCs, because the algorithms haven't been deliberately influenced about them, but it highlights old/bad/discredited science on other subjects.
 
May I point out something for clarification, pls?

It's Mr Forster's mention of CFCs and the Ozone Layer in his third and fourth sentences:

I asked a scientist (a real, genuine research chemist sort of scientist, rtd.) a question about CFCs only recently.
CFCs did and still do pose a threat to the protective shield against most of the Sun's ultraviolet rays that is the Earth's Ozone Layer - their "corrosive" (sorry, I've forgotten the scientist's term) properties being the cause of the hole in the protective gas over Antarctica which was first described in the 1980s.

The speed with which International laws were passed for a global ban of manufacture and use of CFCs was because there were alternative chemicals available to replace them with relatively no upset in the system.

Thanks to that rapid global response, the Ozone Layer is back to a coverage that is working to protect Earth against UV.
It is under constant monitoring. Illegal production of CFC was detected recently emanating from China, so there must be constant vigilance to maintain it.

The Ozone Layer and its protection isn't part of the present crisis relating to excess CO2 in the atmosphere arising from its release from fossil stores.

Other than that, it's ? from here to Mr Forster.
You're fright. Irredeemable error. Me culpa. Checked out through Google you (unlike me) are almost completely right. r
 

Scribus

Member
Location
Central Atlantic
An informed summary of the problems facing the UK, and then the world, is impossible unless it is acknowledged that climate change impact dominates the thinking of noisy, sometimes self-promoting, sections of the wealthy western middle class much more than it does elsewhere.

And it's the money men talking the loudest, there's gold in them there turbines, electric vehicles, dodgy smart meters etc. It's the new fascism, control of society through the imposition of supposed environmental solutions to problems which, as the article acknowledges, are yet to be properly defined.
 

Dave645

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
N Lincs
You're fright. Irredeemable error. Me culpa. Checked out through Google you (unlike me) are almost completely right. r
Skipping that mistake, while I see no evidence to support, that the current round of climate change is anything other than man made, I do agree with animals raised on grass and grass fodder are low impact and should not be tarred with the same brush as intensive heavily grain fed livestock, or those grazing on clear rain Forrest’s.

While I see no harm in the different types of diet people wish to follow vegetarian, vegan, I do note the near improbability of vegan as a diet for the majority to follow, I just note that your excluding 7/10’s of the planet, the oceans, for a start, then all the ruff grazing land that animal graze and turn into meat for us especially sheep on moorland. Which other than possibly growing new trees it has no food use.

The planet has natural ways to balance Co2 animals and our breathing and farting are small fry in the big scheme of things, but we are overwhelming those systems with fossil fuels that is why we are seeing a big spike in the planets Co2 levels.

While it maybe sensible to cut the intensive side of livestock production, and plant more trees, especially in desert areas in the world, as they are non productive, our fossil fuel uses are so vast that the grazing part of the livestock industry is got to get a semi free pass because we are going to need that production, if climate change progresses.
And it continues to put pressure of arable lands production ability.

The get real solutions to climate pressures, even if they were 100% natural and unstoppable would be reductions in world population growth rates and if possible reductions in the worlds population.
That is because the get real message on climate change is its 99% likely it’s man made, everything we do alters the climate cities create weather, as do roads and buildings, fossil fuels increase Co2 and the heat in the air, especaly around built up areas. (They mention it in weather forecasts (ground frost in rural areas)why only in rural areas ask your self?) as Co2 is an effective green house gas, then we have livestock which we intensively manage in artificial ways that produce others, we have tipping points where our interactions start other processes.

Nature will win out as will the planet it’s just if we are still 7 billion plus strong when the dust settles.
While I don’t agree with some of the climate protesters thinking that includes livestock production because I think we will need all the food production we can get to get use over the next 50 years. , I would sleep easier if we did more to stop the ever increasing Co2 levels faster. The year we see a fall in C02 will be a good year, as I don’t think we need to hit zero C02 the planet can cope with a lot of our stupidity. But until we do see a consistent fall we cannot rest on our laurels.

I will note climate change has been linked to roman times, and historic events around that time, while I don’t know what triggered them, so have no clue if they were natural or man had an influence ie clearing by burning vast areas of Forrest. The results even on the relatively small world population of 100 million people are telling mass migration, wars, starvation, don’t paint a good picture of things where temperature get to roman levels.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ir-pollution-caused-climate-change-in-europe/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...hange-and-disease-helped-fall-rome-180967591/

So don’t be so sure we can afford to let things slip to roman temperature levels. And still be ok.
It will only take one major food shortage to kick things off, followed by population displacements. And people blocking people from doing so because of food shortages. . .
 
Last edited:

Campani

Member
And it's the money men talking the loudest, there's gold in them there turbines, electric vehicles, dodgy smart meters etc.

Your right and all those oil companies doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. I heard the board of Exxon Mobil live in practical poverty. They certainly wouldn't have anything to gain from climate denial or blaming people for eating meat.
 

Scribus

Member
Location
Central Atlantic
Your right and all those oil companies doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. I heard the board of Exxon Mobil live in practical poverty. They certainly wouldn't have anything to gain from climate denial or blaming people for eating meat.

A rather superficial analysis, but TBH that is rather par for the course for the pseudo green movement, particularly the EV lobby.

But anyway, the oil industry grew up because of demand from the consumer, there was no connivance with governments or mass brainwashing of society through an unholy alliance of corporations, media and said governments. Sure, the industry has never been a bunch of angels, far from it, but it has brought huge advantages to humanity and it is not proven that the 'batteries with everything' approach will do anything to make the world a better place, indeed I see it as the next environmental disaster in the making as mankind once again sets out to prove it knows better than nature.

I'm no fan of fossil fuel extraction, to my mind the rape of the planet for resources and minerals is indeed unsustinable, whether it be for coal for industry or cobalt for batteries.
 

Scribus

Member
Location
Central Atlantic
Skipping that mistake, while I see no evidence to support, that the current round of climate change is anything other than man made, I do agree with animals raised on grass and grass fodder are low impact and should not be tarred with the same brush as intensive heavily grain fed livestock, or those grazing on clear rain Forrest’s.

While I see no harm in the different types of diet people wish to follow vegetarian, vegan, I do note the near improbability of vegan as a diet for the majority to follow, I just note that your excluding 7/10’s of the planet, the oceans, for a start, then all the ruff grazing land that animal graze and turn into meat for us especially sheep on moorland. Which other than possibly growing new trees it has no food use.

The planet has natural ways to balance Co2 animals and our breathing and farting are small fry in the big scheme of things, but we are overwhelming those systems with fossil fuels that is why we are seeing a big spike in the planets Co2 levels.

While it maybe sensible to cut the intensive side of livestock production, and plant more trees, especially in desert areas in the world, as they are non productive, our fossil fuel uses are so vast that the grazing part of the livestock industry is got to get a semi free pass because we are going to need that production, if climate change progresses.
And it continues to put pressure of arable lands production ability.

The get real solutions to climate pressures, even if they were 100% natural and unstoppable would be reductions in world population growth rates and if possible reductions in the worlds population.
That is because the get real message on climate change is its 99% likely it’s man made, everything we do alters the climate cities create weather, as do roads and buildings, fossil fuels increase Co2 and the heat in the air, especaly around built up areas. (They mention it in weather forecasts (ground frost in rural areas)why only in rural areas ask your self?) as Co2 is an effective green house gas, then we have livestock which we intensively manage in artificial ways that produce others, we have tipping points where our interactions start other processes.

Nature will win out as will the planet it’s just if we are still 7 billion plus strong when the dust settles.
While I don’t agree with some of the climate protesters thinking that includes livestock production because I think we will need all the food production we can get to get use over the next 50 years. , I would sleep easier if we did more to stop the ever increasing Co2 levels faster. The year we see a fall in C02 will be a good year, as I don’t think we need to hit zero C02 the planet can cope with a lot of our stupidity. But until we do see a consistent fall we cannot rest on our laurels.

I will note climate change has been linked to roman times, and historic events around that time, while I don’t know what triggered them, so have no clue if they were natural or man had an influence ie clearing by burning vast areas of Forrest. The results even on the relatively small world population of 100 million people are telling mass migration, wars, starvation, don’t paint a good picture of things where temperature get to roman levels.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ir-pollution-caused-climate-change-in-europe/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...hange-and-disease-helped-fall-rome-180967591/

So don’t be so sure we can afford to let things slip to roman temperature levels. And still be ok.
It will only take one major food shortage to kick things off, followed by population displacements. And people blocking people from doing so because of food shortages. . .

This passage here explains exactly why you cannot be taken seriously

I will note climate change has been linked to roman times, and historic events around that time, while I don’t know what triggered them, so have no clue if they were natural or man had an influence ie clearing by burning vast areas of Forrest. The results even on the relatively small world population of 100 million people are telling mass migration, wars, starvation, don’t paint a good picture of things where temperature get to roman levels.

Climate change has been going on forever, it's what the climate does, 40 years ago we were being assured by these wonderful god like scientists that an ice age was overdue. How had they come to that conclusion? They looked at historical records, ice cores, geological features etc and the overwhelming evidence was that the climate fluctuates over time. Nobody has questioned that except religious fundamentalists. Now the lads with the big brains tell us that it was all wrong, it's just us wicked humans that are doing it all and the money men have sensed an opportunity to make even more dosh but insisting that we all convert to a system of energy management that nature itself has tried but not pursued.

You pseudo green lobbyists are nowhere near as bright as you like to pretend.
 

Campani

Member
But anyway, the oil industry grew up because of demand from the consumer, there was no connivance with governments or mass brainwashing of society through an unholy alliance of corporations, media and said governments.
And it's the money men talking the loudest, there's gold in them there turbines, electric vehicles, dodgy smart meters etc.

This a link to the Norwegian Oil Fund. I think it's fair to say there is a lot of money in Oil.
https://www.nbim.no/

Climate change is bad for the fossil fuel business. Climate change denial is good for fossil fuel business. its naive to think the fossil fuel companies are not investing in marketing.
 

PSQ

Member
Arable Farmer
And it's the money men talking the loudest, there's gold in them there turbines, electric vehicles, dodgy smart meters etc. It's the new fascism, control of society through the imposition of supposed environmental solutions to problems which, as the article acknowledges, are yet to be properly defined.

Yup, a report recently estimated the emerging 'green revolution' to be worth about $2.6 trillion over the next decade .
For those 'in control' in the Davos set, thats going to buy an *awful lot* of Lear jets, 'super' yachts and Bentleys...
 

PSQ

Member
Arable Farmer
The oil industry was worth $87 trillion in 2018 alone.

Oil as a resource is finite, but it lubricates the wheels of power, finance and society to such a degree that there must be something to replace it when the wells run dry. That something is renewable energy and resources, and 'man made climate change' is the narrative that is being used to get the public to demand that wholesale change.

At some point oil will be regarded like 'King' coal is now, and the $2.6B -v- $87B proportions will be reversed.
 

Dave645

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
N Lincs
This passage here explains exactly why you cannot be taken seriously

I will note climate change has been linked to roman times, and historic events around that time, while I don’t know what triggered them, so have no clue if they were natural or man had an influence ie clearing by burning vast areas of Forrest. The results even on the relatively small world population of 100 million people are telling mass migration, wars, starvation, don’t paint a good picture of things where temperature get to roman levels.

Climate change has been going on forever, it's what the climate does, 40 years ago we were being assured by these wonderful god like scientists that an ice age was overdue. How had they come to that conclusion? They looked at historical records, ice cores, geological features etc and the overwhelming evidence was that the climate fluctuates over time. Nobody has questioned that except religious fundamentalists. Now the lads with the big brains tell us that it was all wrong, it's just us wicked humans that are doing it all and the money men have sensed an opportunity to make even more dosh but insisting that we all convert to a system of energy management that nature itself has tried but not pursued.

You pseudo green lobbyists are nowhere near as bright as you like to pretend.
I am a farmer that doesn’t like farming to get a bad rap, where it’s not due, but I am mindful of history and the lessons that we can learn from it. We can ignore them at are peril.
The least of our problems is livestock production, and I think we will need all the food production we can get.
As far as climate change and farming is concerned we can do better, and intensive meat production, is avoidable.
For the most part so it makes sense to reduce it.

If I remember correctly as little as 10 years ago temperature rises were put down as lies, made up by climate scientist it was only when the evidence was overwhelming did they stop that pony and move on to not as fast as predicted and not by man.
Basicly science is science, opinion is opinion, where one tries to predict the other is used to hide the truth.

if thinking man has a hand in climate change, makes me a green lobbyist, what does that make you?

Show one piece of evidence that shows that raised C02 levels we currently experiencing, has nothing to do with our current climate change?

Because you cannot be denying that we are responsible for the current levels of C02, are you?

We all have a part to play in this artificial bout of climate change, some directly some indirectly, where we all need to agree is it’s of our making, at least at that point we can move forward and stop delaying the changes we need to sort it out. Farming will have its part to play.
 

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