Tackling succession (or not)

[KayFran]

First post from long-time TFF reader!!!

So parents are 70 still active but slowing down physically. 400 acre upland farm with about 350 acres of grass (some improved some old permanent). 400 ewes only stock on the farm. Employing someone 3 days a week (labour bill about £12,000) as well as working themselves plus me part-time over the last 20 years including all lambing. I don't get paid but have had a free house on the farm for the last 7 years worth about £8,000 per year.

Farm is being supported by parents savings and there is a loan repayment of £18,000 a year.

Me with lots of experience in sheep, grass management and business planning and wanting to manage farm to increase sheep flock, introduce diversification and get ready for change in payments.

Them saying no because:

• I have 4 farm cats
• 12 chickens
• Want to diversify into equine market (circa £20,000 profit on equivalent 4 acres)
• 'Messy' house
• Want to base farming business decisions in large part on costings and financial planning
• Don't think the business can justify £12,000 labour on 400 ewe flock!
• I have a 'bad' attitude i,e. challenge them

The only thing a bit different to other farms is that they bought the farm themselves with my father working off farm for 40 years - good job which allowed them to get into farming.

All comments welcome

 

[Tim W]

1) Its their farm they can do what they want
2) If it doesn't suit then move to a job somewhere else
3) They will soon call you if (when) they need help & then the ball will be in your court

The above would be rational to anyone that was making a decision purely on costings/business & financial planning

 

[onthehoof]

Do you have another job?
Do your parents need to make a ‘living’ from it or is it more of a hobby, obviously need to make enough to pay off loan.

 

[KayFran]

I'm self employed so have some income but have always based career decisions on being able to help out on the farm.
My biggest issue is that I am desperate to farm - like totally devoted to the place and it would break my heart to leave or be chucked out.

I can manage without taking an income from the farm but have opportunities to make +£50,000 from the place from diversifying and increasing the flock.

 

[Tim W]

I'm self employed so have some income but have always based career decisions on being able to help out on the farm.
My biggest issue is that I am desperate to farm - like totally devoted to the place and it would break my heart to leave or be chucked out.

I can manage without taking an income from the farm but have opportunities to make +£50,000 from the place from diversifying and increasing the flock.

That's the failing and why you have a low bargaining hand

 

[onthehoof]

Not many making £50K off a decent lowland Farm let alone hill farm with 18k loan repayment. When does the loan expire?

 

[KayFran]

Loan has another 20 years at least - have budgeted £15,000 from 800 ewe flock and the rest diversification.

 

[KayFran]

That's the failing and why you have a low bargaining hand

I know Basically told to keep quiet, do what I'm told and don't question anything or I'm out

 

[E_B]

Sit tight as long as you can afford to, slowly slowly catchy monkey. Sometimes you have to know how far to push before backing off a bit. Be prepared to walk away if it comes to it. Offering to borrow in your name to implement some of your aims may be a way of getting your ideas started.

 

[KayFran]

Sit tight as long as you can afford to, slowly slowly catchy monkey. Sometimes you have to know how far to push before backing off a bit. Be prepared to walk away if it comes to it. Offering to borrow in your name to implement some of your aims may be a way of getting your ideas started.

 

[Jim75]

If you can’t hold your tongue and toe the line and wait for the right time, voice your concerns and be prepared to move on. We tried the don’t ask any questions (in laws) but it got to much and gave them an ultimatum, farm now hasn’t got a farmhouse and have a job elsewhere that is home for me. Similar to you, they weren’t making much if any money that with a few tweaks would’ve helped but alas not interested and head in the sand attitude. Never been happier away from the place.

 

[Chae1]

I'm self employed so have some income but have always based career decisions on being able to help out on the farm.
My biggest issue is that I am desperate to farm - like totally devoted to the place and it would break my heart to leave or be chucked out.

I can manage without taking an income from the farm but have opportunities to make +£50,000 from the place from diversifying and increasing the flock.

Have you offered to buy farm and stock off them?

 

[KayFran]

Can't afford to buy farm but have asked to take on poorest 100 acres, house and 100ft x 50ft shed for £18,000 on FBT (or some agreement).

 

[topground]

Do you have any siblings, how old were your grandparents when/if they are deceased? The point might rapidly be approaching when your parents will need support to continue to live where they are. If there are siblings what do they want to see happen to the farm?
All the best decisions based on gathering all available information and that will include the fallout from Brexit so bide your time.

 

[JSmith]

Stick with the job an have a better work life balance!! I felt I couldn’t walk away an leave my parents as they were older an who else would do it but all I’ve done is sacrifice my life when I could of got a nine to five an got some money round me an not been on call 24hrs a day! Admittedly it’s all I wanted to do an things are getting better now the old mans more or less out of the equation but for someone who’s in there mid thirties all I’ve got to show for it is a promise! Also have other siblings who want nothing to do with the farm but you can bet your rubbish they’ll turn up when the inevitable happens!! Life’s to short, stick with the job an if you still stuck on farming maybe when you’ve got some savings you can rent a patch here an there an start from that!! Keep arguing is know good even if your side of the argument is valid it only makes you bad, I know

 

[KayFran]

Do you have any siblings, how old were your grandparents when/if they are deceased? The point might rapidly be approaching when your parents will need support to continue to live where they are. If there are siblings what do they want to see happen to the farm?
All the best decisions based on gathering all available information and that will include the fallout from Brexit so bide your time.

It's my parents farm as first generation farmers. Youngest sibling not interested in the farm. Next one came back to a house on the farm nearly 2 years ago after divorce - she's happy to get house and riding on the farm free of charge until she finds something better.

 

[kiwi pom]

If you have no fulltime job and are very keen on taking the farm over, why aren't you the person they employ 3 days a week?

It's my parents farm as first generation farmers. Youngest sibling not interested in the farm. Next one came back to a house on the farm nearly 2 years ago after divorce - she's happy to get house and riding on the farm free of charge until she finds something better.

I suspect the "something better" will turn out to be a share in the value of the farm when the time comes.

 

[KayFran]

If you have no fulltime job and are very keen on taking the farm over, why aren't you the person they employ 3 days a week?



I suspect the "something better" will turn out to be a share in the value of the farm when the time comes.

Because I have ideas on how to improve things

I can do all the jobs apart from fencing - the guy who does the work is good but he's got used to doing things his way and parents are fine with this. Sometimes I get the blame for things he has done though and there are some liability issues. He's down as self-employed although really his employed and he uses the chainsaw even though he has no certificate and won't wear safety equipment. I get shouted at when I point out these things ..........

 

[KayFran]

Just a couple of other bits of wisdom from my Dad

1. he won't make silage but will buy it in at £30 bale which is supposed to be the cheapest option
2. he'll sell potential breeding stock for 'cash flow' not realising that this reduces cash flow each year with lower sheep numbers
3. won't apply for environmental grants for fencing
4. won't say how many breeding stock he wants in the autumn because 'it depends on the weather'
5. won't accept the advice of well respected grassland consultant

They have no friends and only really talk now to my sister and the guy who works for the farm

 

[gone up the hill]

Just a couple of other bits of wisdom from my Dad

1. he won't make silage but will buy it in at £30 bale which is supposed to be the cheapest option
2. he'll sell potential breeding stock for 'cash flow' not realising that this reduces cash flow each year with lower sheep numbers
3. won't apply for environmental grants for fencing
4. won't say how many breeding stock he wants in the autumn because 'it depends on the weather'
5. won't accept the advice of well respected grassland consultant

They have no friends and only really talk now to my sister and the guy who works for the farm

How old are you if you don't mind me asking?