... yep you`re definately rigth ! What are your special thougths about this? What are you doing to lessen these effects on your farm ?
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The Two Simon's Theory
- Thread starter Simon Chiles
- Start date
... yep you`re definately rigth ! What are your special thougths about this? What are you doing to lessen these effects on your farm ?
Hello Soren.
Yep that`s a really good one! I did my bachelorthesis about how to produce more humus out of wheatstraw. Mine was a little bit more from the point of view of organic-chemistry and processes but in the end it comes down to the same I think. It`s possible to increase the c-sequestion from straw from an average something about 10% to the one of farmyard manure
with 23% ish ! The question is just if got to give the input for this like the aussis did. With a highreserve-soil, it`s just a matter
of activating enough biology with high diversity to create these ratio`s. Sure not working with stubble-fallow.
http://orgprints.org/1372/
This is an presentation I did provide about my thesis for the company "Agrostim":
http://www.ihss-cz.cz/content/file/Hustopeče_20150306/Uwe_Bohm.pdf
bactosoil
Member
There are so many factors that have a cause an effect ,not only is it biology and physiology of soil its also how they both react in different zonal profiles, throw in external factors such as chemical and fertilizer applications and its results in very busy soil . Currently using in part new insitu testing to quantify the different variables that happen very quickly , even just getting bacteria over stimulated can blow carbon levels surprisingly fast . The crux of it all is balance and/or correct ratios that are key to attaining good outputs with little inputs on any scale of enterprise ..
mikep
Member
- Location
- Arse end of Surrey, UK
I like a lot of organic theory but cannot put up with the blinkered dick heads that run the soil association in the UK.
There are some really good people doing a lot of work with plant breeding in an organic situation that have run into bunt problems. There is nothing effective they are allowed to use here even vinegar is a no no, so do they lose their work to remain organic? No I am getting the seed dressed and will plant it this autumn to rinse it for them. I cannot work with such strict rules and be judged by some purile idiot every year anymore. I did it for six years and in the end told them to sod off.
I agree that low yields from a more holistic approach need a premium and I am hoping I have found one for the future that should provide a similar uplift to organic but without the hassle. I think you will only ever progress on small farms now by taking the best of the present and past and mixing to your satisfaction.
Philip Hedeng
Member
- Location
- Halmstad, Sweden
Hello all, I've just read this thread all from the beginning and there's so much interesting in here. The subject is kind of evolving and although it may not be a verified theory, it sounds like som of the practical solutions are working to counter the problems with straw in wet conditions, from what I read.
A question I have about the use of lime @Simon Chiles , you believe lime mixed with the straw on the surface will counter the toxins being released or is it lime close to the seedling that is most important? I was thinking about spreading lime on the stubble with chopped straw and perhaps mix it with a rake before LD drilling for example 2nd WW or WOSR after wheat. In the case of wheat following wheat, lime in the furrow can possibly increase risk of take-all, but maybe not as much when applied on the surface? We're used to placing NPKS with the seed when drilling OSR to get it ready for winter fast enough, if that can have a positive or negative impact in this matter.
Maybe a pass with the rake after any heavy rains post drilling can minimize the creation of anaerobic pockets and toxins?
A question I have about the use of lime @Simon Chiles , you believe lime mixed with the straw on the surface will counter the toxins being released or is it lime close to the seedling that is most important? I was thinking about spreading lime on the stubble with chopped straw and perhaps mix it with a rake before LD drilling for example 2nd WW or WOSR after wheat. In the case of wheat following wheat, lime in the furrow can possibly increase risk of take-all, but maybe not as much when applied on the surface? We're used to placing NPKS with the seed when drilling OSR to get it ready for winter fast enough, if that can have a positive or negative impact in this matter.
Maybe a pass with the rake after any heavy rains post drilling can minimize the creation of anaerobic pockets and toxins?
- Location
- Surrey/ Kent Border, UK
I think the lime needs to be with the straw. My reasoning being that things ( lime, toxins ) will only move downwards in the soil profile and that they need to go together. If you place the lime lower than the straw you will effectively give it a head start in its downward movement and run the risk of, at the worst, the acids and lime not being in the same place or, most likely, it will reduce the effectiveness of the lime.
If you place the lime before you drill you will get a small amount in the slot anyway which is probably the best scenario.
straw is like sponge. so
1st the water is taken by the straw
2nd. straw starts to decompose
3rd: water will start to move lime downwards. Only take particles <1mm into consideration. Over here up to 255 of the lime can be >1mm. My ex director of one of the most reputes t ag labs always calls lime >1mm: eternity fertiliser.
other topic:
as in the "solution" of the composing straw there is N, what will happen when lim eis added?
Do your own trial: apply Urea, wet it & spread lime on top.
Time for some pree harvest experimentation ;-)
York-Th.
p.ws. over here ag industrie is holding their breath as strong largest stock exchange farmer in the EU has released news that he couldn't pay interest on a bond on time.. 45th ha, 250mill € depht's.
1st the water is taken by the straw
2nd. straw starts to decompose
3rd: water will start to move lime downwards. Only take particles <1mm into consideration. Over here up to 255 of the lime can be >1mm. My ex director of one of the most reputes t ag labs always calls lime >1mm: eternity fertiliser.
other topic:
as in the "solution" of the composing straw there is N, what will happen when lim eis added?
Do your own trial: apply Urea, wet it & spread lime on top.
Time for some pree harvest experimentation ;-)
York-Th.
p.ws. over here ag industrie is holding their breath as strong largest stock exchange farmer in the EU has released news that he couldn't pay interest on a bond on time.. 45th ha, 250mill € depht's.
Philip Hedeng
Member
- Location
- Halmstad, Sweden
I will apply 3-4 tonnes per hectare of 0-2mm lime. I don't know how much is <1mm though. Since I drill with a disc drill I will try to keep stubble high. @York sounds like you have an answer already. Just thinking about what you said; N feeds micro-organisms which then decompose plant material quicker = more rapid release of toxins?? Cutting stubble high and perhaps get the combine to not chop the straw as much will increase the time for toxin release to start...
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
Have one block of second wheat which was our last drilled block of wheat. Wasn't intending for it to be wheat, but given the other 2nd wheats had gone in well, and given we thought conditions were a lot drier than they ever got last spring, we decided to drill. Santiago at 240 kg/ha drilled about 26/10. Looked like this after drilling:
Despite being so dry over the preceeding period, I was still surprised how tacky and damp the soil was. There was noticeably more slotting than the earlier lot of 2nd wheat we had drilled which had been ploughed the previous year. We rolled at an angle but that still did not close the slots. There was noticeably a much worse seed placement with seed sitting in straw which was pushed into a shallow slot. I think we would have been fine if the straw had been baled; in the areas where the straw wasn't spread to by the combine, the establishment is much better. I didn't have a great feeling about this drilling at the time but felt that this was as good as it was going to get. Quite a few snails around so put 2 kg/ha metaldehyde pellets in the slot and then 3 kg/ha on top after rolling.
Our earlier block of 2nd wheat is looking OK (although no-till 2nd wheat always looks poor in pictures - at least that's my excuse):
A few weeks on and the latest block of 2nd wheat has been slow to come through. We have lost a bit of seed to due to hollowing due to the poor seed to soil contact. I probably should have pelleted again a while back, but having already put 5 kg/ha on I was a bit reluctant. The seed in the straw in the shallow slots germinated with the reasonable amount of rain that followed drilling. Having been pleasantly surprised in our early 2nd wheat and no-till winter barley how shoots seemed to appear even in quite quick trash, I was hopeful.
Where we are now though, I think we are going to be left with a thinnish crop.
Some shoots are still coming, or are obscured by the straw. I don't think it's a disaster, but I think we might have to consider over-drilling some spring wheat in the spring. I'm told that @martian did this in a successful way.
Those later germinating seeds in the straw seemed to have given up. This is a picture of some of them:
When you squeeze them they burst and are very milky / watery. Some have shoots as well as roots, but many don't seem to have anything more than a small root.
The question I'm asking myself is what was the biggest culprit in their demise. It was a sort of Two Simons type situation because the of the rain following the previously dry period. However, what struck me over the last few weeks was, despite the dryness of the soil at depth, how waterlogged the slots got after only a little rain. You could stick your fingers in the slot and there was standing water. My inkling is that these seeds just drowned. What do you think?
Despite being so dry over the preceeding period, I was still surprised how tacky and damp the soil was. There was noticeably more slotting than the earlier lot of 2nd wheat we had drilled which had been ploughed the previous year. We rolled at an angle but that still did not close the slots. There was noticeably a much worse seed placement with seed sitting in straw which was pushed into a shallow slot. I think we would have been fine if the straw had been baled; in the areas where the straw wasn't spread to by the combine, the establishment is much better. I didn't have a great feeling about this drilling at the time but felt that this was as good as it was going to get. Quite a few snails around so put 2 kg/ha metaldehyde pellets in the slot and then 3 kg/ha on top after rolling.
Our earlier block of 2nd wheat is looking OK (although no-till 2nd wheat always looks poor in pictures - at least that's my excuse):
A few weeks on and the latest block of 2nd wheat has been slow to come through. We have lost a bit of seed to due to hollowing due to the poor seed to soil contact. I probably should have pelleted again a while back, but having already put 5 kg/ha on I was a bit reluctant. The seed in the straw in the shallow slots germinated with the reasonable amount of rain that followed drilling. Having been pleasantly surprised in our early 2nd wheat and no-till winter barley how shoots seemed to appear even in quite quick trash, I was hopeful.
Where we are now though, I think we are going to be left with a thinnish crop.
Some shoots are still coming, or are obscured by the straw. I don't think it's a disaster, but I think we might have to consider over-drilling some spring wheat in the spring. I'm told that @martian did this in a successful way.
Those later germinating seeds in the straw seemed to have given up. This is a picture of some of them:
When you squeeze them they burst and are very milky / watery. Some have shoots as well as roots, but many don't seem to have anything more than a small root.
The question I'm asking myself is what was the biggest culprit in their demise. It was a sort of Two Simons type situation because the of the rain following the previously dry period. However, what struck me over the last few weeks was, despite the dryness of the soil at depth, how waterlogged the slots got after only a little rain. You could stick your fingers in the slot and there was standing water. My inkling is that these seeds just drowned. What do you think?
If doing a second wheat so late I'd be much more tempted to drill off the heap farm saved and up the seed rate. I think its waterlogging/drowning by the way - not able to grow through it
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
I spoke to Simon on the phone at the time we were drilling. When I told him the seed rate his voice went up about two octaves in disbelief. He couldn't believe we were drilling at such a high rate. I think a higher seed rate would have been better, but in the bad bits (i.e. foot long sections of some rows) I think you would have needed a huge seed rate. I think with the straw in the slot as it was, seed was either going to grow or it wasn't.
He likes low seed rates though. That said maybe his john deere y fronts were chafing him
Tractor Boy
Member
- Location
- Suffolk
I have some bits like that as second wheat. Mine definitely didn't drown as they went in on 30th Sept and it stayed dry. Any seed there now will burst the same way you mention. Most of mine are in the poor spread trash/chaff strips right behind each combine pass. I thought it was purely slugs even though there were pellets in the slot and on top as there were an awful lot hollowed. A couple of weeks ago though someone suggested that perhaps the seed embryo had been killed/severely poisoned before the slug finished it off. I suppose this is plausible as at the time it was dry weather but the trash was wet and it was definitely warm enough to have emerged within 12-14 days if healthy.Have one block of second wheat which was our last drilled block of wheat. Wasn't intending for it to be wheat, but given the other 2nd wheats had gone in well, and given we thought conditions were a lot drier than they ever got last spring, we decided to drill. Santiago at 240 kg/ha drilled about 26/10. Looked like this after drilling:
Despite being so dry over the preceeding period, I was still surprised how tacky and damp the soil was. There was noticeably more slotting than the earlier lot of 2nd wheat we had drilled which had been ploughed the previous year. We rolled at an angle but that still did not close the slots. There was noticeably a much worse seed placement with seed sitting in straw which was pushed into a shallow slot. I think we would have been fine if the straw had been baled; in the areas where the straw wasn't spread to by the combine, the establishment is much better. I didn't have a great feeling about this drilling at the time but felt that this was as good as it was going to get. Quite a few snails around so put 2 kg/ha metaldehyde pellets in the slot and then 3 kg/ha on top after rolling.
Our earlier block of 2nd wheat is looking OK (although no-till 2nd wheat always looks poor in pictures - at least that's my excuse):
A few weeks on and the latest block of 2nd wheat has been slow to come through. We have lost a bit of seed to due to hollowing due to the poor seed to soil contact. I probably should have pelleted again a while back, but having already put 5 kg/ha on I was a bit reluctant. The seed in the straw in the shallow slots germinated with the reasonable amount of rain that followed drilling. Having been pleasantly surprised in our early 2nd wheat and no-till winter barley how shoots seemed to appear even in quite quick trash, I was hopeful.
Where we are now though, I think we are going to be left with a thinnish crop.
Some shoots are still coming, or are obscured by the straw. I don't think it's a disaster, but I think we might have to consider over-drilling some spring wheat in the spring. I'm told that @martian did this in a successful way.
Those later germinating seeds in the straw seemed to have given up. This is a picture of some of them:
When you squeeze them they burst and are very milky / watery. Some have shoots as well as roots, but many don't seem to have anything more than a small root.
The question I'm asking myself is what was the biggest culprit in their demise. It was a sort of Two Simons type situation because the of the rain following the previously dry period. However, what struck me over the last few weeks was, despite the dryness of the soil at depth, how waterlogged the slots got after only a little rain. You could stick your fingers in the slot and there was standing water. My inkling is that these seeds just drowned. What do you think?
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
I think we certainly should have put on another lot of pellets. But a lot of these seeds aren't obviously hollowed. I wonder, though, if the slugs / snails just nipped the growing shoot early enough to make them give up.
Peeling the trash away from the slots, you can see that there is a lot of fungus of some sort. I'm not sure what this indicates.
Tractor Boy
Member
- Location
- Suffolk
Yes that looks identical to mine. Unfortunately for every 5m or so good wheat I've got 2m thin like this. 7m combine header!!I think we certainly should have put on another lot of pellets. But a lot of these seeds aren't obviously hollowed. I wonder, though, if the slugs / snails just nipped the growing shoot early enough to make them give up.
Peeling the trash away from the slots, you can see that there is a lot of fungus of some sort. I'm not sure what this indicates.
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
What do you think about the idea of cross-drilling some spring wheat in the spring?
- Location
- Surrey/ Kent Border, UK
Have one block of second wheat which was our last drilled block of wheat. Wasn't intending for it to be wheat, but given the other 2nd wheats had gone in well, and given we thought conditions were a lot drier than they ever got last spring, we decided to drill. Santiago at 240 kg/ha drilled about 26/10. Looked like this after drilling:
Despite being so dry over the preceeding period, I was still surprised how tacky and damp the soil was. There was noticeably more slotting than the earlier lot of 2nd wheat we had drilled which had been ploughed the previous year. We rolled at an angle but that still did not close the slots. There was noticeably a much worse seed placement with seed sitting in straw which was pushed into a shallow slot. I think we would have been fine if the straw had been baled; in the areas where the straw wasn't spread to by the combine, the establishment is much better. I didn't have a great feeling about this drilling at the time but felt that this was as good as it was going to get. Quite a few snails around so put 2 kg/ha metaldehyde pellets in the slot and then 3 kg/ha on top after rolling.
Our earlier block of 2nd wheat is looking OK (although no-till 2nd wheat always looks poor in pictures - at least that's my excuse):
A few weeks on and the latest block of 2nd wheat has been slow to come through. We have lost a bit of seed to due to hollowing due to the poor seed to soil contact. I probably should have pelleted again a while back, but having already put 5 kg/ha on I was a bit reluctant. The seed in the straw in the shallow slots germinated with the reasonable amount of rain that followed drilling. Having been pleasantly surprised in our early 2nd wheat and no-till winter barley how shoots seemed to appear even in quite quick trash, I was hopeful.
Where we are now though, I think we are going to be left with a thinnish crop.
Some shoots are still coming, or are obscured by the straw. I don't think it's a disaster, but I think we might have to consider over-drilling some spring wheat in the spring. I'm told that @martian did this in a successful way.
Those later germinating seeds in the straw seemed to have given up. This is a picture of some of them:
When you squeeze them they burst and are very milky / watery. Some have shoots as well as roots, but many don't seem to have anything more than a small root.
The question I'm asking myself is what was the biggest culprit in their demise. It was a sort of Two Simons type situation because the of the rain following the previously dry period. However, what struck me over the last few weeks was, despite the dryness of the soil at depth, how waterlogged the slots got after only a little rain. You could stick your fingers in the slot and there was standing water. My inkling is that these seeds just drowned. What do you think?
If it was sitting wet in the slot when the rest of the soil was generally dry then I'd suggest you had too high firming wheel pressure, too high coulter pressure and possibly the pressure on the Guttlers was wrong too, although they could equally have been too much or not enough, you'd have to see it in the field to know. You could have had just one setting wrong or possibly all three.
I've stitched a spring wheat into a crop of winter wheat ( grovelled in in Dec because the seed was 3 years old and needed using as it was starting to grow in the bag where the rats had pee'd on it ) and both the spring wheat and winter wheat ripened at the same time and so was easy to harvest. Just make sure the Winter Wheat isn't too far advanced when you drill the spring wheat. If you get a chance you might be better off drilling more winter wheat in the next few months. If you've got the seed now I'd get up early tomorrow and drill it whilst the ground is frozen.
If you had a low plant count ( but it was still all there ) in the old days ( when it was legal ) we used to give it a sniff of N every month throughout the winter, sometimes it was amazing the difference it made.
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
Firming wheel was in the middle position. Tried higher spring tension and that left more open slots. Perhaps should have tried letting them right off. Coulter pressure was 70 I think. We did try lower, but it really rode out if there was any trash then. Guttler wheel was as it was when you were there; tried it on the next position up and it didn't seem to make any difference and so we left them as they were.
Richard is coming tomorrow to have a look round. So could do it tomorrow night / morning. It is quite dry at the moment, but still definitely less hospitable conditions than when we drilled it. Richard said that John did it in the spring and it got going nice and quickly. I would be a bit worried now about it sitting there in the cold not doing much.
James,
We find putting 10kg of tech grade DAP helps down the slot as far as slugs go, but this is with a Hybrid rather than a JD.
I dont think the acidic nature of the fert is much liked.Normally treat with pellets a few days before drilling if traps show slugs about.
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
Having walked round our second wheats today with the agronomist, I have decided not to try and zero till 2nd wheats again unless done in a very different way.
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