Tractor design for no-till

[martian]

I've got an old friend coming down to attend the Groundswell Show (well, he's a friend who's old, I haven't known him that long...) and he's keen to investigate how tractors could be designed with no-till farming in mind. He designed and built the Tinkabi tractor in Swaziland, which was basically a frame the size of a double bed with a wheel at each corner and a 15kW diesel engine powering a hydraulic pump which fed two hydrostatic drives on two of the wheels. I might have the terminology wrong, but it is a wonderfully simple design and very cheap to buy and run. No brakes, you just pull the lever back and the oil slows it, reverses the tractor or whatever. Excellent machine for developing countries. Plenty of room for the whole family on board, very versatile.

He's got someone from Ghana coming to Groundswell as well, they are looking at making them there and helping the Ghanaian farmers do more. What he and I are wondering is: how to best fit this into a no-till system? Get the weight of the seed over the wheels to help traction? Avoid power hungry attachments, like fans to blow seed (gravity is much easier and quieter) etc?

Any thoughts?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Can you get him to pal up with the Trantor man?

 

[Clive]

Graham Edward ?

Although he is 100% correct that the kind of tractors we all use are ott for growing food I really can’t see people swapping them for trantor type machines

Maybe in the 3rd world there is a market but in the first word it be robots that replace tractors as we know then not a return to a more basic tractor style

In the first world it’s labour that limits so wide working widths are needed (so air on drills can’t be avoided at legal transport widths)

 

[Badshot]

Actually I could see it working as a concept.
But like a small gantry type machine.
Have a 3 m wide drill unit that sits under it, which could be interchanged with a hoe.
Simple, rtk steering , bobs your uncle, less reliance on chemicals.
Could easily be made autonomous too.

 

[Clive]

Actually I could see it working as a concept.
But like a small gantry type machine.
Have a 3 m wide drill unit that sits under it, which could be interchanged with a hoe.
Simple, rtk steering , bobs your uncle, less reliance on chemicals.
Could easily be made autonomous too.

Autonomous and then your talking

Without that bit we need bigger machines on many farms due to shortage (and cost ) of skilled labour

 

[Spud]

Autonomous and then your talking

Without that bit we need bigger machines on many farms due to shortage (and cost ) of skilled labour

Not sure bigger is better. I, like you have, are finding as soil improves, less power is needed.
The flaw with multiple small robotised drills is the demand for maintenance, logistics in moving them around and keeping them full of seed, and an assumption that farmers are themselves technically proficient enough to run them without paying a fortune for an 'expert' with a laptop to sort all the glitches out.

If my experience of satellite movement on my autosection is anything to go by, it would be a royal pita!

I can see the benefit in automated gantry type tractors for interow hoeing and veg work, for example, but question how practical it would be for drilling and spraying.

 

[Clive]

Not sure bigger is better. I, like you have, are finding as soil improves, less power is needed.
The flaw with multiple small robotised drills is the demand for maintenance, logistics in moving them around and keeping them full of seed, and an assumption that farmers are themselves technically proficient enough to run them without paying a fortune for an 'expert' with a laptop to sort all the glitches out.

If my experience of satellite movement on my autosection is anything to go by, it would be a royal pita!

I can see the benefit in automated gantry type tractors for interow hoeing and veg work, for example, but question how practical it would be for drilling and spraying.

I think “big” is relative - big used to be 600hp to me and now it’s 240 but that can still pull 12m wide drills under no till systems

Smaller for me now would mean more labour and that’s simply not an option on cost and availability grounds so next “smaller” step needs automation to reduce or remove labour

GPS is 100% if you have RTK and a good system, 10 yrs with our own base station and I can honestly say it’s never missed a beat and overlaps can be measured in mm these days - full automation will off course need more than one system to reply upon however

 

[Spud]

I think “big” is relative - big used to be 600hp to me and now it’s 240 but that can still pull 12m wide drills under no till systems

Smaller for me now would mean more labour and that’s simply not an option on cost and availability grounds so next “smaller” step needs automation to reduce or remove labour

GPS is 100% if you have RTK and a good system, 10 yrs with our own base station and I can honestly say it’s never missed a beat and overlaps can be measured in mm these days - full automation will off course need more than one system to reply upon however

It is relative, of course, your power for drilling is now 40% of that previously. We went years and years buying bigger tractors each time one got changed, but peaked at 200hp. They dont work as hard now, and I can forsee 200 becoming 180, then 160 - though I doubt it'll go much lower.

Don't for a moment think that robots = no labour. Labour will still be required for all the back up jobs like seed carting and problem solving - it'll just be a less attractive job than sat in a nice 724 on autosteer!
How a swarm of robot corn carts is safer or more practical than say a decent 14t trailer/160hp tractor I have no idea, Sounds like a management nightmare. Can't see many robots digging a grain pit out when an elevator expires either. Nobody minds doing the crap jobs, as long as they are balanced with better jobs. Robots look to be removing all the good jobs - so appropriately skilled staff will get harder to find, not easier at all.

Just my take on it, but I'm only a simple peasant taty grower with a bit of corn and a few pigs!

ps - heres betting your 724 drill tractor finishes up morphing into a 300hp crawler.....

 

[Clive]

It is relative, of course, your power for drilling is now 40% of that previously. We went years and years buying bigger tractors each time one got changed, but peaked at 200hp. They dont work as hard now, and I can forsee 200 becoming 180, then 160 - though I doubt it'll go much lower.

Don't for a moment think that robots = no labour. Labour will still be required for all the back up jobs like seed carting and problem solving - it'll just be a less attractive job than sat in a nice 724 on autosteer!
How a swarm of robot corn carts is safer or more practical than say a decent 14t trailer/160hp tractor I have no idea, Sounds like a management nightmare. Can't see many robots digging a grain pit out when an elevator expires either. Nobody minds doing the crap jobs, as long as they are balanced with better jobs. Robots look to be removing all the good jobs - so appropriately skilled staff will get harder to find, not easier at all.

Just my take on it, but I'm only a simple peasant taty grower with a bit of corn and a few pigs!

ps - heres betting your 724 drill tractor finishes up morphing into a 300hp crawler.....

I agree, robots won't replace tractor drivers, we will just need less off them in a different role. The robots will do more, and be much more consistent and higher skilled being about to do and see stuff that no human brain can. Without doubt there are many challenges to solve like harvest and carting to name just a few............. its all years off yet I think

No way I will go back to tracks ! and really do not want more power, if we struggle with the new 12m drill then a bit more weight will be the first step. Others are using such machinery on similar tractors though so no reason we shouldn't be able to as well

 

[Spud]

I agree, robots won't replace tractor drivers, we will just need less off them in a different role. The robots will do more, and be much more consistent and higher skilled being about to do and see stuff that no human brain can. Without doubt there are many challenges to solve like harvest and carting to name just a few............. its all years off yet I think

No way I will go back to tracks ! and really do not want more power, if we struggle with the new 12m drill then a bit more weight will be the first step. Others are using such machinery on similar tractors though so no reason we shouldn't be able to as well

Interesting that you see more weight through tyres as a preferable option to tracks? Why so?

 

[martian]

Graham Edward ?

No. He's called Alan Catterick. Very interesting man

 

[Clive]

Interesting that you see more weight through tyres as a preferable option to tracks? Why so?

track machines costs fortunes to run (how does 15k for a annual service on our old big Challenger grab you !) and they are a one trick pony - in our case all a tracked machine would do is drill but no use for anything else we do whatsoever so i would still need wheels tractors for other jobs. We don't need big HP for direct drilling. Owning a machine that works for maybe 4 weeks a year max doesn't make a lot of sense really

Tracks are better than tyres but i run a business so margins and costs come before "whats best" in my world


As things our we use the same tractor to drill, spray, fert, spread, roll and cart................. everything. All our tractors are the same so we have contingency built in as well. My ethos is to own as few pieces of equipment as possible and get the most out of each of them that we can

 

[Spud]

track machines costs fortunes to run (how does 15k for a annual service on our old big Challenger grab you !) and they are a one trick pony - in our case all a tracked machine would do is drill but no use for anything else we do whatsoever so i would still need wheels tractors for other jobs. We don't need big HP for direct drilling. Owning a machine that works for maybe 4 weeks a year max doesn't make a lot of sense really

Tracks are better than tyres but i run a business so margins and costs come before "whats best" in my world


As things our we use the same tractor to drill, spray, fert, spread, roll and cart................. everything. All our tractors are the same so we have contingency built in as well. My ethos is to own as few pieces of equipment as possible and get the most out of each of them that we can

That all makes sense, maybe half tracks woukld be a worthwhile investment? Use on drill and chaser bin? Fit any tractor, last a long time, spread weight and increase traction. I see how 12m works in a CTF system, but think a 9t tractor on wheels will struggle in a wet time or up a hill. I guess you'll see come back end! Only man I know running a dd 12m CTF system has a 520hp Quadtrac on his drill, hence my thinking.

 

[newholland]

@martian why not have a chat to Simon or George from SimTech...….a 2.4m grass farmer type drill would be ideal

 

[martian]

@martian why not have a chat to Simon or George from SimTech...….a 2.4m grass farmer type drill would be ideal

Funnily enough, that's exactly the drill I was imagining, no PTO, no fan, land-wheel driven, lovely bit of kit

 

[marco]

Martian asks about no-till in Africa and clive starts on about 12meter drills and robots. The 3meter john deere gravity fed drill would be ideal. One hydraulic for lift lower. Job done.

 

[newholland]

@martian They have quite a few old drills kicking about here and there. An orchard version might be a handy prototype to play with.
Picture is a mixture of old drill and SimTech tines...... catch phrase "any seed any surface" would suit your Africa idea for sure.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Autonomous and then your talking

Without that bit we need bigger machines on many farms due to shortage (and cost ) of skilled labour

You say autonomous but drilling a field isnt expensive in tractor hours or time really.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Martian asks about no-till in Africa and clive starts on about 12meter drills and robots. The 3meter john deere gravity fed drill would be ideal. One hydraulic for lift lower. Job done.

Cost to run and down pressure a potential disadvantage?

Surprised theyre not looking to India and S American small farmers for inspiration. Tell Mr Catterick Rolf Derpsch would very likely have some good ideas

 

[Fuzzy]

I think “big” is relative - big used to be 600hp to me and now it’s 240 but that can still pull 12m wide drills under no till systems

Smaller for me now would mean more labour and that’s simply not an option on cost and availability grounds so next “smaller” step needs automation to reduce or remove labour

GPS is 100% if you have RTK and a good system, 10 yrs with our own base station and I can honestly say it’s never missed a beat and overlaps can be measured in mm these days - full automation will off course need more than one system to reply upon however

Who is using 240hp to pull a 12m drill ??? I would have thought you need a bit more than that ?