UK Farm Support......THE POLL!!

[Nithsdale]

"In recent years more money has been spent in Scotland than has been collected, whether or not you count money collected from the North Sea oil and gas industries.


This has also been the case over the last 18 years if you look at the revenue collected and money spent per person in Scotland."up

https://fullfact.org/economy/tax-and-spending-scotland/

Nowhere does that say what you claim that we are paid out by those South of the Border, just that Scotland has a deficit... a deficit just like the rest. Our 'top up' is from UK national debt. That's not English, Welsh or Irish money...

Also, those figures are not strictly accurate. There is no revenue figures for ANY business which trades in Scotland but has its head office in England... Tesco don't do 2 books, for example. The Whisky (export) industry is also omitted from the calculations, as it is taxed at point of Export which is Felixstowe... which makes it English revenue


But, this is seriously off topic.

 

[glasshouse]

Semantics

codswallop

 

[thesilentone]

Appears contradictory

How is the size of the 'tradeable cake' to be restricted without govt involvement, be it tariffs or subs?

Either via licencing or planning would be the simplest means in the UK, these both being trade-able also. EG: Country population = 10m market demand = Xtons x 70% trading market = X x 30%

Production licences for supply, the surplus can be traded. However combined they should not exceed 100% of each Countries overall supply requirement.

 

[Woolly]

Subsidies don’t pump money into anything but landowners pockets. There is no requirement to spend sub money on anything. Many could claim subs for grassing down their farms and letting them out on grazing licences. How does this put money into the rural economy?

If/when subs go there market forces will ensure there is a rebalancing between cost of production and commodities prices.

I have no emotional attachment to small family farms.

There will be more opportunities for someone like me if the number of farms contracts and the size of those farms expands.

Eg. 20 farms running 400 sheep. That’s 20 shepherds. But those shepherds have no where to go, there is no career advancement available.

1 farm running 8000 sheep. There will be multiple shepherds (3 or 4), a head shepherd, possibly a unit manager/stock manager and maybe even a general manager. This unit will have a large amount of bargaining power when negotiating with suppliers and customers.

Most shepherds around here in W Wales with 400 sheep probably see themselves as part-time shepherds. They are likely to see 'career advancement' in other directions, construction, tourism, renewable energy, direct selling etc. Work in Aberystwyth showed that many family farms are very efficient, with farmers living on the job, putting in extra hours and able to improve their farm with income from 2nd/3rd jobs.

If land ownership is the Eldorado you think, why not buy some? In many parts of UK land is not that expensive, eg for the price of a suburban house in SE England, you can buy a small farm in Wales.

 

[Woolly]

Either via licencing or planning would be the simplest means in the UK, these both being trade-able also. EG: Country population = 10m market demand = Xtons x 70% trading market = X x 30%

Production licences for supply, the surplus can be traded. However combined they should not exceed 100% of each Countries overall supply requirement.

Hard to see how that would work without a price floor of some kind - folk aren't going to produce at a loss.

 

[thesilentone]

Hard to see how that would work without a price floor of some kind - folk aren't going to produce at a loss.

No one expects anyone to produce at a loss...why would they ?

 

[unlacedgecko]

Most shepherds around here in W Wales with 400 sheep probably see themselves as part-time shepherds. They are likely to see 'career advancement' in other directions, construction, tourism, renewable energy, direct selling etc. Work in Aberystwyth showed that many family farms are very efficient, with farmers living on the job, putting in extra hours and able to improve their farm with other income from 2nd/3rd jobs.

So why do they need government support then?

If land ownership is the Eldorado you think, why not buy some? In many parts of UK land is not that expensive, eg for the price of a suburban house in SE England, you can buy a small farm in Wales.

I will be buying land. But not in the UK, as land value is far outstripping productive potential. Also, buying land is not the be all and end all, I'd also have to buy entitlements.

 

[glasshouse]

Most shepherds around here in W Wales with 400 sheep probably see themselves as part-time shepherds. They are likely to see 'career advancement' in other directions, construction, tourism, renewable energy, direct selling etc. Work in Aberystwyth showed that many family farms are very efficient, with farmers living on the job, putting in extra hours and able to improve their farm with income from 2nd/3rd jobs.

If land ownership is the Eldorado you think, why not buy some? In many parts of UK land is not that expensive, eg for the price of a suburban house in SE England, you can buy a small farm in Wales.

agreed

 

[Ukjay]

now that were out of the EU!

Erm - are we actually out of the EU yet, because the last I heard, we were backtracking and part of the reason Borat Johnsonbollocks has resigned

 

[brigadoon]

Semantics

Fact

 

[digger64]

so why do you need a 'farm debt mediation bill'......you wouldn't have it if it were just a few with problems....kiwi dairy farms alone account for $1 dollar in every $10 lent in nz nationally

In a country covered in grass with little heavy industry , an agricultural economy what on earth else would you expect them to be lending for other than food processing , tourism or infrastructure ?

 

[digger64]

Government (which means taxpayer) support to the tune of £300 million announced today for the aerospace industry.
How is this any different from support for UK agriculture?

Someone else asked for an explanation of the link between subsidies and food prices. I have yet to read how it will be that when subsidies go prices will magically rise commenurately to the primary producer.

Prices to the primary producer will only rise if sterling falls to a point where the supermarkets can buy cheaper at home or there is a fall in production as farmers revert to minimal input dog and stick farming.
If farming does not pay without subsidies large areas of the country will be ranched as happened in the 30's with the consequent demise of the rural economy and drain on the benefits system by the rural unemployed.

Subsidies pump money into the rural economy and keep people in work.

A question for those who advocate doing away with subsidies. How would you pump money into the rural economy to keep it going? Or should we peasants just shut up shop and migrate to the towns and cities in search of work?

In the east of england , the opposite would apply , a 40 foot combine and 1 employee to well over 1000 acres is not in anyway unusual

 

[thesilentone]

Government (which means taxpayer) support to the tune of £300 million announced today for the aerospace industry.
How is this any different from support for UK agriculture?

Someone else asked for an explanation of the link between subsidies and food prices. I have yet to read how it will be that when subsidies go prices will magically rise commenurately to the primary producer.

Prices to the primary producer will only rise if sterling falls to a point where the supermarkets can buy cheaper at home or there is a fall in production as farmers revert to minimal input dog and stick farming.
If farming does not pay without subsidies large areas of the country will be ranched as happened in the 30's with the consequent demise of the rural economy and drain on the benefits system by the rural unemployed.

Subsidies pump money into the rural economy and keep people in work.

A question for those who advocate doing away with subsidies. How would you pump money into the rural economy to keep it going? Or should we peasants just shut up shop and migrate to the towns and cities in search of work?

If the part of your post highlighted were true, then subsidies would have a circular affect, however in many cases they simply top up a pension fund. So, please explain to the tax-payers why they should pay for someone else's pension fund ?

Farming receives £3,000,000,000 (£3.0bn) per year in subs and contributes 0.7% to GDP

Aerospace contributes 3.4% of GDP, so £300m looks like good value.

 

[Coximus]

I understand they are using desert areas, incorporating a dust - something like clay to keep water - then irrigating using ground water.

I spoke a while back to lad from Sudan who came looking for sheep for ramadan - he was talking about how in the past 5 years they were planting alot of trees and using powdered charcoal, mixed with cattle and sheep dung, burying it by deep ploughing and burying it in the furrow (1 board and 4 ox.....) and that this land would stay green for 6-8 months of the year but the normal grassland was only green for 3 months - gave a whole new perception to our drought here - literally 6 - 8 months without rain where he was from in the Sudan. Apparently "lots of white people" came and gave them this idea and lots of advice before they all got diarrhoea and had to fly to Qatar to escape the sickness.
He said as long as they didnt "let the sun touch the dirt" the grasses they grew didnt die, but once the sun touched the soil that was it and the plants died. The trees planted for shade stoped that happening. Apparently this is happening all over Africa - He said that they were also buying enw grass seeds from other countries - much like we do, sounds like the future could make Africa a power house agriculturally.



(He was a sheep and goat farmer before becoming a refugee - very nice chap and when explained the regs brought a sheep which i delivered to the abattoir for him - he just wanted to say the prayer before it was killed and was adamant he couldn’t eat meat unless he himself prayed over the animal - I respect his commitment to local produce!!!!) Lovely lad and he kept 30-40 animals on 20 hectares approx of land which given his climate sounds like alot, but He did say animals never really lost weight or ate much compared to ours here - I suppose they didnt need to burn energy keeping warm so their maintenance requirements were very low, and any they ate could go into milk (the main thing he produced).

 

[Danllan]

why to simple ?
a few didn't "get" a simple question a couple years ago, wanted to make it far more complicated than it was or needed to be

See below.

its a simple yes or no?

@Farmer Roy beat me to it. (We have had rain! ) He's demonstrated why they're stupid questions. Another example, for you, could be:

Are you a successful businessman / farmer?

Yes, because the public subsidise me.

No, because the public subsidise me.

Closed answers give me the answer I want, get it?

 

[caveman]

Semantics

@Cowabunga

This guy reckons red squirt is subsidised.
Please explain.........again.

 

[Cowabunga]

@Cowabunga

This guy reckons red squirt is subsidised.
Please explain.........again.

14 pages of rubbish that I have no intension of starting to read.

Red.

Is NOT subsidised. It just does not have a large element of road duty applied. It has some, to acknowledge that it is sometimes used on the road, but not much.
To agree that it is subsidised is exactly like arguing that a 20% income tax payer is subsidised compared to a higher rate taxpayer. Logically if you agree that red diesel is subsidised then you must agree that all lower rates of tax are subsidies to whoever they apply.

That's the end of that. Now I can go back to ignoring this thread. Thanks for your consultation request. The invoice is in the post.

 

[Henarar]

I will be buying land. But not in the UK, as land value is far outstripping productive potential.

when you have bought this land abroad and you are presumably farming it will you come on TFF to slag off the UK and UK farming ?

 

[lazy farmer]

14 pages of rubbish that I have no intension of starting to read.

Red.

Is NOT subsidised. It just does not have a large element of road duty applied. It has some, to acknowledge that it is sometimes used on the road, but not much.
To agree that it is subsidised is exactly like arguing that a 20% income tax payer is subsidised compared to a higher rate taxpayer. Logically if you agree that red diesel is subsidised then you must agree that all lower rates of tax are subsidies to whoever they apply.

That's the end of that. Now I can go back to ignoring this thread. Thanks for your consultation request. The invoice is in the post.

the UK government call it a "rebate" The difference between a rebate and a subsidy really is a mute point when the end goal is the same.

 

[unlacedgecko]

when you have bought this land abroad and you are presumably farming it will you come on TFF to slag off the UK and UK farming ?

Nah. Once I've got my overseas grazing operation I'll be having far too much fun running it to bother with the internet!