What are the rules about buying a plot with an old derelict stone building on it? Planning required to live in/do up or already intact by default?

[George from SJM Planning]

Part of my smallholding was derelict and classed as uninhabitable, the other had no roof.
I spent nearly two years battling the local planners to renovate the derelict part and get a roof on the other. With a specialist Co behind me and with four sets of different plans we slogged on.
I went round the exterior of the derelict to make it watertight and started to repair the steading until a STOP notice arrived in the post. I was serious and so were the planners so we continued to butt heads.
Eventually I sent in the original drawings and two weeks later I received a rubber stamp accepting the proposals with the proviso that I treated the buildings as if they were ‘listed’
I saw several plots when I was looking around Lampeter and gleaned some stories as to why they were as they were. I even put a bid in on one derelict but the vendor wasn’t really serious in selling unless one was a cousin.
In 35 years since I was looking the planners are now very aware of the dodges folk try so I doubt you’d get much joy out of your quest.
SS

I believe I may have looked at the same site near Lampeter (or at least a very similar story). I approached the council and they confirmed the dwelling to be derelict and abandoned (I don't disagree) and I provided the paperwork from the council to the agent. They still marketed it as "with residential potential" for a year after despite having proof there was no potential.

 

[Nearly]

If it is an existing house but in need of repair you should get permission for caravan.
No shortcuts unless you are prepared to spend equivalent of a house in planning fees and agents.

 

[Rich_ard]

Sure but doesn't that depend on the likelihood of being accepted. Or could you just make an application when the place didn't have a hope in hell of getting permission and live in the caravan all the while it takes to go through the system?

What about the 'trick' I have seen on youtube where you can buy agricultural land and apply to build a barn then you have 5 years or so to complete while only having to have started in order to live in a temp building on site. Then if not done by 5 years you start another building.

5 years in a caravan and you will finish the cow shed and move in to it.

 

[Rich_ard]

If it is an existing house but in need of repair you should get permission for caravan.
No shortcuts unless you are prepared to spend equivalent of a house in planning fees and agents.

Don't think there are seeing this side of it.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Sure but doesn't that depend on the likelihood of being accepted. Or could you just make an application when the place didn't have a hope in hell of getting permission and live in the caravan all the while it takes to go through the system?

What about the 'trick' I have seen on youtube where you can buy agricultural land and apply to build a barn then you have 5 years or so to complete while only having to have started in order to live in a temp building on site. Then if not done by 5 years you start another building.

The barn trick on YouTube is full of legal holes - I have yet to find anyone who has done this and being investigated by the council an account so have not taken formal action. The legislation within the YouTube video pertains to the temporary accommodation for contractors working on the erection of the building - it cannot be the applicant or owner as they would be doing it for their own benefit and not part of their business or trade.

 

[SoilHugger]

The barn trick on YouTube is full of legal holes - I have yet to find anyone who has done this and being investigated by the council an account so have not taken formal action. The legislation within the YouTube video pertains to the temporary accommodation for contractors working on the erection of the building - it cannot be the applicant or owner as they would be doing it for their own benefit and not part of their business or trade.

So just rubbish advice made just to get views?

Are you aware of that chap named Kris Harbour who makes loads of permaculture buildings himself and is very big on youtube?

I only came across his videos lately in my recent interest in this area but see he is like some guru on youtube for doing this. I wondered how he gets planning permission for all the stuff he builds and shows on his various social media. I managed to find a reddit Ask Me Anything he did some time ago and someone asked how he managed to get planning permission. He said that it is always an issue but, as he is in wales, he has permission via the one planet development scheme.

I am not sure about that since I have read so many failures online of people having been trying for over a year doing everything by the book and still getting rejected and having to appeal. Maybe he got special treatment for having a successful youtube channel.

He never mentioned One Planet from what I could see on his channel and given how involved the process seems to be I wonder about that given how much it would divert him from making buildings.

 

[anzani]

So just rubbish advice made just to get views?

Are you aware of that chap named Kris Harbour who makes loads of permaculture buildings himself and is very big on youtube?

I only came across his videos lately in my recent interest in this area but see he is like some guru on youtube for doing this. I wondered how he gets planning permission for all the stuff he builds and shows on his various social media. I managed to find a reddit Ask Me Anything he did some time ago and someone asked how he managed to get planning permission. He said that it is always an issue but, as he is in wales, he has permission via the one planet development scheme.

I am not sure about that since I have read so many failures online of people having been trying for over a year doing everything by the book and still getting rejected and having to appeal. Maybe he got special treatment for having a successful youtube channel.

He never mentioned One Planet from what I could see on his channel and given how involved the process seems to be I wonder about that given how much it would divert him from making buildings.

https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2019-06/planning-permission-one-planet-developments-in-open-countryside.pdf

 

[bobk]

I believe I may have looked at the same site near Lampeter (or at least a very similar story). I approached the council and they confirmed the dwelling to be derelict and abandoned (I don't disagree) and I provided the paperwork from the council to the agent. They still marketed it as "with residential potential" for a year after despite having proof there was no potential.

There's a site similar in our village , the building has been scrubbed from the local framework
Anyway someone marketed it with planning potential , sold for £257 .k ,,,, oops

 

[SoilHugger]

https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2019-06/planning-permission-one-planet-developments-in-open-countryside.pdf

Not sure why you linked that. I am aware of what the scheme is. What I am questioning is the ease of getting acceptance on it.

 

[anzani]

Not sure why you linked that. I am aware of what the scheme is. What I am questioning is the ease of getting acceptance on it.

Perhaps Freedom of information requests to local planning departments in areas of interest would throw up cases where it has been successfully used, thus enabling you to engage with those experienced in its foibles.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

One Planet is a very specialised planning situation - my sister looked into it and I advised her to seek advice from a Planning Consultant who specialises in it. Last time I checked her backround information for her submission was about 600 pages!

One Planet is Wales specific but if you go to the council website and use the planning serch and try One Planet of OPD you might find some applications. As far as I know there are less than 100 across Wales.

 

[PhilipB]

Are you still trying to out smart planning? How many ideas can you come up with. Buy a house with land and get on with life.

I'm enjoying it- I never miss an episode, can't wait to see what he thinks up next.

 

[suffolksmallholder]

One eyed Bill Anderson sold 80 acres to a young man. Roll forward a decade and there were two small cattle sheds built. Roll forward another decade and there’s a fab ‘mobile’ home on the site.
I will do a drive by to see whether this ‘mobile’ is now a house.
OK the land is/was being farmed but if this fails I do wonder what comes next.
section out five acres & sell the 75 remaining as it did once grow a crop.
SS

 

[Rich_ard]

I'm enjoying it- I never miss an episode, can't wait to see what he thinks up next.

Could go on for a long time. Can't see a end plan in them.

 

[SoilHugger]

One eyed Bill Anderson

Is this a celebrity of the british farming world I should know about?

 

[suffolksmallholder]

Is this a celebrity of the british farming world I should know about?

No just a character I knew as a yoof, who sectioned off parcels of land shortly before he died. As a lot of his generation did, nothing was thrown away so his ‘home paddock’ was chock full of rusting machinery.
He was well known locally as a kind but eccentric fellow and with an eye patch, stood out.
SS

 

[SoilHugger]

No just a character I knew as a yoof, who sectioned off parcels of land shortly before he died. As a lot of his generation did, nothing was thrown away so his ‘home paddock’ was chock full of rusting machinery.
He was well known locally as a kind but eccentric fellow and with an eye patch, stood out.
SS

Yes what is the deal with the rusting machinery?

Is it just another hangover from the war rationing generation? My mum and other's of her age are generally all hoarders and use that as their reason.

 

[suffolksmallholder]

Yes what is the deal with the rusting machinery?

Is it just another hangover from the war rationing generation? My mum and other's of her age are generally all hoarders and use that as their reason.

Every Farm I remember as a young man had the home paddock full of disused items, sitting rusting.
Perhaps ‘that’ll be useful for something’ attitude as these old chaps were full of clever ideas! Prevailed.
Later on in my late 20’s I went round and often bought elderly unwanted 80” & series 1 Land Rovers when the average price was £300. These were taken apart for spares so I could keep mine going and those of our little group.
Not like today!
SS

 

[SoilHugger]

Every Farm I remember as a young man had the home paddock full of disused items, sitting rusting.
Perhaps ‘that’ll be useful for something’ attitude as these old chaps were full of clever ideas! Prevailed.
Later on in my late 20’s I went round and often bought elderly unwanted 80” & series 1 Land Rovers when the average price was £300. These were taken apart for spares so I could keep mine going and those of our little group.
Not like today!
SS

What is it like today? I have no reference having been a 'city slicker' much of my adult life. Even when I lived in the country I didn't hang around in such circles to ask such things. Well had plenty of farmer mates but the question of the economy doing up old farming machinery never came to mind then .

 

[suffolksmallholder]

What is it like today? I have no reference having been a 'city slicker' much of my adult life. Even when I lived in the country I didn't hang around in such circles to ask such things. Well had plenty of farmer mates but the question of the economy doing up old farming machinery never came to mind then .

Most of my mates earned and still earn their living with ag related stuff.
My main LR friend retired at Christmas, another who was a John Deere Apprentice of the year is still ‘doing’ Deere’s,
I have had my feet in many camps, I like buildings and have been involved with the construction of some interesting projects including a RIBA highly commended award in their ‘House-of-the-year competition during the 80’s.
I spent 25 years working on a 3000 acre estate rising up the ladder from being the builder/maintenance man to a managerial position.
With access to standing timber I supplied The Thames Sailing Barge world with lumps of oak for items such as rigging-chocks saddle-chocks & frames.
This means I get ‘phone calls to crew occasionally during the Summer racing schedule.
Being of more mature years I am aft and now ‘main-sheet’ on SB Will https://thamesbargewill.com/

I moved away from that at 50 and bought my smallholding where I scratch a living doing ‘repairs’ for a property company intermixed with renovating my 1859 house.
We try to keep to Permaculture ideals and continue to transform our little plot towards this goal.
SS