What is your definition of high health herd how long does it need to be closed. And do you need to be in a scheme of some sort to call yourself high health or does only buying bulls from pedigree breeders and blood testing randomly 5 or6 a year and vaccinating for bvd ibr count
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When’s a herd closed/high health
- Thread starter tr250
- Start date
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
Grey area with lots claiming to be and many not.
True definition would be heard that’s not buying in live, ie only AI and embryos and is in CHECS health scheme with confirmed freed of disease.
Second best would be buying in but from other accredited herds as well to keep risk down. It’s all about decreasing risk.
Just vaccinating isn’t enough to claim high health as plenty herds who have bvd / IBR vaccinate but still have the disease.
Also remember can’t be free of Johnes by true definition just lowest level of risk.
You can also still get breakdowns of disease in high health herds unfortunately.
A closed herd is not necessarily high health and nor is a high health herd necessarily closed.
A closed herd may be riddled with disease but have antibodies to deal with it.
Look for Checs accreditation for IBR, Lepto and BVD and a long Johnes level 1 - no certificates means no accreditation and only hot air. That’s a good start then you only have Tb to worry about.
A closed herd may be riddled with disease but have antibodies to deal with it.
Look for Checs accreditation for IBR, Lepto and BVD and a long Johnes level 1 - no certificates means no accreditation and only hot air. That’s a good start then you only have Tb to worry about.
- Location
- Buxton, Derbyshire
For me a closed herd is one that NEVER buys any stock in, which includes never bringing stock home from a market. However many herds class themselves as closed yet buy in bulls, or bring animals home from market or go to shows.
However being closed is no guarantee of health status. The only guarantee of health status is as Davy says is a CHECS accredited health scheme as this is fully audited and attestable.
However being closed is no guarantee of health status. The only guarantee of health status is as Davy says is a CHECS accredited health scheme as this is fully audited and attestable.
- Location
- Bedfordshire
Look through a sale catalogue, and they all start 'high health' where as it should say 'tested health'.
Imo the whole job is a con, but we'll be forced into it like red tractor if the vets and organisations keep pushing it.
Imo the whole job is a con, but we'll be forced into it like red tractor if the vets and organisations keep pushing it.
- Location
- Scottsih Borders
I don't think it is feasible for a relatively small herd or flock not to buy in a bull or tup from time to time.
Whether they are from a pedigree flock or herd is irrelevant. What is vital is that they are BVD free and have a certified acceptable risk-level for Johnes Disease.
It is also worth appreciating that a BVD-free herd of cattle has an immediate benefit on any associated sheep flock - BVD in cattle can affect sheep on the same farm.
And if you sell disease-free stock to farms which have a background infection of the relevant diseases - your naïve stock will be very susceptible, although a well-thought-out vaccination policy before sale call help in some situations.
Whether they are from a pedigree flock or herd is irrelevant. What is vital is that they are BVD free and have a certified acceptable risk-level for Johnes Disease.
It is also worth appreciating that a BVD-free herd of cattle has an immediate benefit on any associated sheep flock - BVD in cattle can affect sheep on the same farm.
And if you sell disease-free stock to farms which have a background infection of the relevant diseases - your naïve stock will be very susceptible, although a well-thought-out vaccination policy before sale call help in some situations.
I have heard the ‘con job’ argument before and have thought long and hard about the diseases and vaccination manufacturers/ agendas etc. Whatever the agendas the big worry has to be johnes. The cause effect link with crohns disease could be the next big scare the dairy & beef industry have to deal with. The screw is already turning on this - better to be prepared rather than reactive.
- Location
- Bedfordshire
But people have always had johnnes, they just culled them. I personally don't think they know as much about the disease as they think.
I bought a cow and calf from a 'high health herd' cow was fine, we kept the bull for breeding, she went about 5 years later looked fine til then, then the bull went down aswell. Had the same with another 'high health' herd, the cow has gone now, and not from johnnes, but her calf is now a 10 year old cow. She's just gone in the last couple of months, and I'm sure it's johnnes.
This was a cow that was always tested on the scheme, up until I left 2 years ago, I think I was the lowest risk level, and never showed in anything else.
Princess Pooper
Member
- Location
- East Mids
There is also a lot more to herd health than the 'big names' of BVD, IBR, TB, Johnes. We are closed dairy other than buying a beef bull. When we had to buy in females because of massive TB breakdown we found the buying in as stressful as the TB itself. As well as requiring any purchase to be free of the above (+ lepto) I would ALWAYS check neospora if buying females. We also made enquiries about salmonella, crypto, pseudomonas, dd, none of which we have a history of. When buying a beef bull we would always buy direct from farm, and blood test before purchase for Johnes, BVD antigen, IBR wild virus and TB as well as enquiring about TB at herd level for last 5 years, when last test was and if they had bought in since last test. In addition, our vet talks to their vet (with vendor's permission) about any wide animal health issues which of course could include resistant worms or fluke.
GenuineRisk
Member
- Location
- Somerset
We are a CHeCs accredited herd for IBR, BVD, bTB level 10, level 2 Johnnes. It is a massive and expensive process as we aren’t a closed herd and have no desire to be - we need to buy in genetics every so often to hopefully take our herd forward. We do show but are manic about keeping the show team quite separate and this autumn, elected not to do any calf shows as we had/have bulls going into AI studs. Too much of a risk for a few calf show ribbons. You do have to be pretty disciplined to maintain accreditation but for us it’s most definitely worth it - AI companies wouldn’t entertain buying from us otherwise.
Anything we might buy in would have the complete gamut of blood tests and then go into isolation and tests repeated before being allowed to join our herd. Wouldn’t entertain buying anything which vendor wouldn’t let us test first (at our expense) and anyone buying from us would always be welcome to blood test prior to purchase at their expense.
Having just gone clear on our annual whole herd bTB test, the two white bulls waiting to go this month onto an AI stud must feel like colanders, they’ve had so many blood tests recently as waiting for IBR Deventer levels to disappear... butthat’s our target market and so worth the effort and expense.
Anything we might buy in would have the complete gamut of blood tests and then go into isolation and tests repeated before being allowed to join our herd. Wouldn’t entertain buying anything which vendor wouldn’t let us test first (at our expense) and anyone buying from us would always be welcome to blood test prior to purchase at their expense.
Having just gone clear on our annual whole herd bTB test, the two white bulls waiting to go this month onto an AI stud must feel like colanders, they’ve had so many blood tests recently as waiting for IBR Deventer levels to disappear... butthat’s our target market and so worth the effort and expense.
Well done that’s quite an achievement with the herd.
We luckily have a better Johnes but could only dream of a similar Tb status.
I do the same as you when buying in new blood, even having the animals dam bled for Johnes too (assuming she is still around).
We luckily have a better Johnes but could only dream of a similar Tb status.
I do the same as you when buying in new blood, even having the animals dam bled for Johnes too (assuming she is still around).
We have 40 ish pedigree Belted Galloway and we are accredited for IBR and BVD and Lepto and are Johnes R1 (best).
This has been a slog and as stated it costs a fortune with all the tests plus the victims at the start of the process.
I wonder why we bother!
At the main annual BG sale we were looking for a bull and only 3 bulls from 2 herds met our health standard.
When we sell at the main sales no one asks me about what we do, why we use marker IBR vaccine, why we vaccinate and monitor free for BVD, why we don’t vaccinate for lepto.
There appears to be no price differentiation based on health status.
Maybe in a few years it will be different so we are continuing for the present.
I agree Johnes is a serious issue. We discovered the hard way that testing for it is not reliable before the animal is aged 2. Bull failed bloods in first routine test having passed his pre purchase tests but wasn’t shedding in poo so we escaped.
And the bull came from an accredited herd.
This has been a slog and as stated it costs a fortune with all the tests plus the victims at the start of the process.
I wonder why we bother!
At the main annual BG sale we were looking for a bull and only 3 bulls from 2 herds met our health standard.
When we sell at the main sales no one asks me about what we do, why we use marker IBR vaccine, why we vaccinate and monitor free for BVD, why we don’t vaccinate for lepto.
There appears to be no price differentiation based on health status.
Maybe in a few years it will be different so we are continuing for the present.
I agree Johnes is a serious issue. We discovered the hard way that testing for it is not reliable before the animal is aged 2. Bull failed bloods in first routine test having passed his pre purchase tests but wasn’t shedding in poo so we escaped.
And the bull came from an accredited herd.
How long was the herd accredited for before you purchased said Bull(for johnes)? It"s not wether there accredited or not but for how long.
Longer than us, about 9 years .
The failure was a real surprise and I still wonder if it was a false positive, especially when poo test ok.
I decided if the genie of Johnes did get into herd it would be a bigger drama than losing £1500 on the bull. He left some great calves of course just to rub it in.
The failure was a real surprise and I still wonder if it was a false positive, especially when poo test ok.
I decided if the genie of Johnes did get into herd it would be a bigger drama than losing £1500 on the bull. He left some great calves of course just to rub it in.
Princess Pooper
Member
- Location
- East Mids
It really frustrated me when we were restocking females after TB talking to some of the sales agents in UK and they were all about (dairy) cow yields and looks and when I started asking questions about health they went quiet as they didn't know the answers - which usually means the herd has no real disease prevention controls in place.
although herd health should be the most important consideration for buyers and vendors , once a buyer gets to a bull sale the most sensible buyer gets buyers big arse syndrome combined with calving score itis... the fact a herd is johns 4 or 5 or testing for bvd,ibr, seems to go out the window for some reason even though scientific info is there in the catalogue a number that is no more than guess seems to be what matters or a red ticket.....
That"s bloomin unlucky,you could be right if poop test was clear. Best to get rid thou.
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Yep.
The problem being the only buyers who give a monkeys about herd health are the people who have true high health herds. Most folk don’t know what the diseases are never mind test for them and know if they have a problem.
So they buy the biggest arse with a red rosette.
What I have to do is breed the best bull and also have the best health status in the breed (I think I’m up there already) with VMF bvd and ibr, accredited Lepto and 8 years risk level 1 Johnes. Screened free of Neospora but never kept that test going as the bloods are taken at the wrong time of gestation.
Well I've just seen onecattle society's Facebook page , if I have read it correctly they are accepting estimated birth weights couldn't believe it.
This goes back to my point the only real scientificinformation in a catalogue is the dna test and herd health information.
This goes back to my point the only real scientificinformation in a catalogue is the dna test and herd health information.