Where's your farm boundary? (Scotland)

Dry Rot

Member
Livestock Farmer
...or march, as we say in Scotland?

Where the march is defined by a burn, stream, ditch, or water course, I have always been led to believe it is the centre line of the water course. This applies to any water course that is running 365 days a year. I believe it is probably the same all over Britain and Ireland, and possibly beyond, established by long custom under Common Law. But am I right?

This makes for some interesting situations. A water course will often change, especially after flooding. So it is my understanding that the boundary/march changes with the situation on the ground. I remember being told of a German incomer who had 'improved' the banks of his property (in Southern Ireland/Eire) which had the effect of diverting the flow in the river bordering his land. There was a big court case when the altered flow washed away several acres of land belonging to his neighbour across the river. (This is years ago, so quite possibly Irish law has changed since). The German was held liable for compensating his neighbour for the lost land. Seemed fair enough to me but my hosts disagreed.

Another case that did not go to court (in Scotland) was where a flood caused the course of a river to change, sweeping away the stock proof fence which had been erected by one owner on his side. This was on low value hill land and In that case the adjacent land owners mutually agreed to share the cost of a single fence on one side, choosing the easiest route for the fencing contractor.

But I believe that the centre line of a water course is usually taken as the march where there is an absence of information to the contrary. Each landowner is responsible for maintaining the 'river' and bank on his side, except for routine cleaning. Ditch cleaning is shared "turn and turn about", one year it is one owner who cleans a stretch, then the next time it is the other land owner.

The cleaning of man made ditches may be different as presumably they are made for the benefit of the landowner who dug them, with the spoil being left on his own land. Of course, fences and walls are a whole different ball game but maybe we should leave that for another day! All we need is one bad neighbour to make the solicitor's day!:)

What is the practice where you farm?
 
The assumption is you dug the ditch on your land, spoil on your land so boundary is far side of ditch.
Neighbouring householder asked where boundary was, father replied middle of ditch. He dug foundations and built shed wall in middle of ditch!
 

TheRanger

Member
Location
SW Scotland
Had a neighbouring large estates land agent tell me recently they wanted half the cost of erecting a new fence for their tenant on their side of the burn (large stream, not quite a river), the existing fence was about 50 years old needed replaced. I've already got a fence on my side of the burn and as far as I'm aware the march is the middle of the burn. Told them politely where to go, they were rather pushy but eventually backed down and paid for it themselves. It was a substantial length, so I'm sure if I was in the wrong they would have pursued it, they were chancing their arm I believe.

Regarding the burn moving, if you look back at historic satellite images over the last 25 years it has moved a little bit, but we've gained in parts and lost in others.
 

Dry Rot

Member
Livestock Farmer
Had a neighbouring large estates land agent tell me recently they wanted half the cost of erecting a new fence for their tenant on their side of the burn (large stream, not quite a river), the existing fence was about 50 years old needed replaced. I've already got a fence on my side of the burn and as far as I'm aware the march is the middle of the burn. Told them politely where to go, they were rather pushy but eventually backed down and paid for it themselves. It was a substantial length, so I'm sure if I was in the wrong they would have pursued it, they were chancing their arm I believe.

Regarding the burn moving, if you look back at historic satellite images over the last 25 years it has moved a little bit, but we've gained in parts and lost in others.
I would say you were correct. But agents sometimes 'try it on' because that's what their principals have told them to do! The owner does the 'nice' stuff and the agent is left to deliver the bad news!
 

Dry Rot

Member
Livestock Farmer
The assumption is you dug the ditch on your land, spoil on your land so boundary is far side of ditch.
Neighbouring householder asked where boundary was, father replied middle of ditch. He dug foundations and built shed wall in middle of ditch!
I agree except that my query was about water courses, i.e. running water which was there before the ditch. That scenario, where a new ditch has been created, is a whole different ball game. The trouble is, did you put the spoil on the side of your field or on your land on the far side of the ditch? Fine if there is a valid plan or witness but otherwise more money for the lawyers.:rolleyes:
 

TheRanger

Member
Location
SW Scotland
I agree except that my query was about water courses, i.e. running water which was there before the ditch. That scenario, where a new ditch has been created, is a whole different ball game. The trouble is, did you put the spoil on the side of your field or on your land on the far side of the ditch? Fine if there is a valid plan or witness but otherwise more money for the lawyers.:rolleyes:
There is a nearby bit of land to here where the course of the burn has changed considerably, so the ownership map boundary on the Scottish Land Registry website is quite far away from where the burn is these days if overlayed with the satellite map. Unsure where the legal boundary would be if they ever come to sell it.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
The boundary is not the middle of the river here its either one side or the other, in one field of ours we own nearly an acre the other side of the river
 

JMcA

Member
Livestock Farmer
Its unusual for the title deeds map to show a boundary as the middle of a river/burn. Its normally one side or the other.
 

TheRanger

Member
Location
SW Scotland
Got an interesting one here where the boundary is a man made ditch (albeit dug over 300 years ago looking at old maps) which runs all year round with water unless incredibly dry (rare). I wonder if it would be classed as a ditch or a stream for boundary purposes.

No remaining hedge on either side. There is a double barb on my side and nothing on his side although there is the remnants of a historic fence on his side of some type, no sign of a "march" fence, and no idea where it would be.
 

Dry Rot

Member
Livestock Farmer
Its unusual for the title deeds map to show a boundary as the middle of a river/burn. Its normally one side or the other.
In which case, if they are both livestock farmers, only one will be getting access to water stock and only one maintains the water course! Sorry, but it does not make sense to me and, to quote Judge Judy, if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true! :ROFLMAO: A lot of things that have become defined by history get abandoned by the next generation because one insists and the other acquiesces. Repeat something often enough and it becomes the truth.
 

Dry Rot

Member
Livestock Farmer
Got an interesting one here where the boundary is a man made ditch (albeit dug over 300 years ago looking at old maps) which runs all year round with water unless incredibly dry (rare). I wonder if it would be classed as a ditch or a stream for boundary purposes.

No remaining hedge on either side. There is a double barb on my side and nothing on his side although there is the remnants of a historic fence on his side of some type, no sign of a "march" fence, and no idea where it would be.
A fence is erected where it can be erected and should never be assumed to be the boundary. I would also be dubious of a line on a plan, having seen the characters in the office who are delegated to draw the plan. What is important is the wording of the title deed. Of course, a lot has changed with modern GPS but it hasn't always been like that.
 

TheRanger

Member
Location
SW Scotland
In which case, if they are both livestock farmers, only one will be getting access to water stock and only one maintains the water course! Sorry, but it does not make sense to me and, to quote Judge Judy, if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true! :ROFLMAO: A lot of things that have become defined by history get abandoned by the next generation because one insists and the other acquiesces. Repeat something often enough and it becomes the truth.
Maybe different in England, but I'm pretty sure in Scotland it's quite common for the middle of the river to be the boundary. Certainly round here.
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
Our field boundaries are straight lines on a map which corresponds to a fence line. The stream meanders either side of the fence line and has changed significantly while I have been here. Might be different elsewhere but its all defined by an enclosure act map dating back to 1795.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 105 40.5%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 94 36.3%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 39 15.1%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 5 1.9%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.2%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 13 5.0%

May Event: The most profitable farm diversification strategy 2024 - Mobile Data Centres

  • 1,784
  • 32
With just a internet connection and a plug socket you too can join over 70 farms currently earning up to £1.27 ppkw ~ 201% ROI

Register Here: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-mo...2024-mobile-data-centres-tickets-871045770347

Tuesday, May 21 · 10am - 2pm GMT+1

Location: Village Hotel Bury, Rochdale Road, Bury, BL9 7BQ

The Farming Forum has teamed up with the award winning hardware manufacturer Easy Compute to bring you an educational talk about how AI and blockchain technology is helping farmers to diversify their land.

Over the past 7 years, Easy Compute have been working with farmers, agricultural businesses, and renewable energy farms all across the UK to help turn leftover space into mini data centres. With...
Top