Why is modern machinery so flipping unreliable?!

[Goweresque]

I keep saying it, the future is rebuilding old school tractors to as new standard, rather than buying a new one with all the bells and whistles and electrical gubbins. The only tractor on my farm that gives any trouble is the single one with an ECU. All the others just work, despite being up to 40+ years old.

Lets face it, once the subs go, farming won't be able to afford 21st century technology, we'll be trying to get back all those mechanical tractors we exported for the last 30 years.

 

[Ashtree]

Having read this thread during the week, I couldn’t help having a smug face on me yesterday, as I spread fertilizer with my Zetor.

 

[Cowabunga]

The way new tractors depreciate it's fair to say the people who buy them used have their reservations. Meanwhile usable 80's/90's classics in good condition are worth more than they cost new

Tractors almost always depreciate about 20% over the first couple of years but tend to hold their value unless the hours mount up or condition deteriorates from then on.
Larger tractors and implements have always tended to depreciate more than the most popular sizes for various reasons and less popular models more than popular ones. It is often the case that a five year old tractor on moderate hours can be nearly as much value as it was new. Often that's because inflation has pushed the price of new ones up of course, nevertheless that particular machine's depreciation can be very low indeed.
I would value a similar condition and hour tier3 tractor with common-rail but without any other complications like external EGR and a DPF, higher than one with all that shite even if it was two years older. That's me talking as a potential buyer of such equipment. I'd want all the productive extras but as little as possible of the potentially expensive to run emissions crap.

 

[hally]

Was Ford Selecto-Speed or their parent metal bore engine block tested adequately or even built to last? Was the MF Multi-Power or International Torque Amplifier or the front axle/steering design of MF100 series and JD early 30 series? The Ford large series 30 Funk powershift? And so on and so forth.

Fair point before my time

 

[Cowabunga]

I keep saying it, the future is rebuilding old school tractors to as new standard, rather than buying a new one with all the bells and whistles and electrical gubbins. The only tractor on my farm that gives any trouble is the single one with an ECU. All the others just work, despite being up to 40+ years old.

Lets face it, once the subs go, farming won't be able to afford 21st century technology, we'll be trying to get back all those mechanical tractors we exported for the last 30 years.

Every single one of my tractors has multiple ECU's, starting from the 1993 Same Titan which has electronically managed engine and transmission and three point hitch. Never had an issue with any of that, although it has had several mechanical problems. Same with the NH and two MF tractors, although the smaller MF had a very early ECU burnout. If not under warranty the computer would have cost £500 plus fifteen minutes of labour.

 

[jondear]

One word. Or two actually...

OLD AGE.

It deceives the brain.

Older age usually means your paying for the repair or breakdown.Youngens in the seat don't give a fudge as long as it's got every electrical gadget known to man and can steer itself!

 

[Cowabunga]

I keep saying it, the future is rebuilding old school tractors to as new standard, rather than buying a new one with all the bells and whistles and electrical gubbins. The only tractor on my farm that gives any trouble is the single one with an ECU. All the others just work, despite being up to 40+ years old.

Lets face it, once the subs go, farming won't be able to afford 21st century technology, we'll be trying to get back all those mechanical tractors we exported for the last 30 years.

Do your really believe that UK labour costs justify extensive rebuilding of mechanical components any more in future than in the past?

If subs go and food prices fall, you might as well put a tractor of any age in the shed and lock the door for the duration. Apart from grain and some veg, anything to do with animals and grassland agriculture will have to be very much large scale ranching with minimal labour and machinery, a dog and stick. Farming in the UK is on the very edge of becoming unviable with land being abandoned as it has been periodically under similar circumstances in the distant past.

 

[ACEngineering]

Something else that bugs me is secrecy with workshop manuals. I ordered one from John Deere for my combine years ago but they were never forthcoming. I downloaded one of a website eventually for a few dollars. But what’s the big deal about keeping all the technical info to themselves? I can’t afford to pay their rates for every trivial job and it’s a nuisance if I keep ringing them for settings etc so why don’t the manufacturers make the technical manuals downloadable. Many do , but some don’t.

Alot of that behaviour is down to the individual dealer imo!

 

[Cowabunga]

Older age usually means your paying for the repair or breakdown.Youngens in the seat don't give a fudge as long as it's got every electrical gadget known to man and can steer itself!

If you rear or employ monkeys you get nuts.

 

[Cowabunga]

I know of a retired car mechanic who drives a fairly new car and if he has any problems with it he takes back to the dealer's because as he says " l wouldn't know where to begin !"

That's because he is old and stuck in his ways. My independent mechanics have got all the electronic interrogation computers needed to diagnose all popular vehicles. Most of the time experienced mechanics can diagnose and sort a problem without a computer of any kind anyway. Sometimes a computer saves a lot of time though, and time is money.

 

[7610 super q]

 

[Goweresque]

Do your really believe that UK labour costs justify extensive rebuilding of mechanical components any more in future than in the past?

Who says it has to be done here? An enterprising person might set up a factory in (say) Poland, where UK based tractors are shipped to, are completely rebuilt and then shipped back again. Or you just do a swap, give them your old one and pay £X on top for a same model rebuilt one.

And anyway there are UK companies who recondition engines and gearboxes who seem to make a living, why not whole tractors and other machinery? There's a lot of £££ between the cost of a new 150hp tractor, and the value of a similar power secondhand knackered tractor. All that cash is available for repair work. What does a JD6130R cost new? £90k if second hand nearly new prices are to be believed. What is a Case MX170 with 15k hours on the clock a) worth and b) cost to have the engine and back end completely rebuilt? I would argue that (a) plus (b) is a lot less than £90k.

 

[Cowabunga]

That gear was cheap and easily fixed apart from funk boxes

In its day it certainly wasn't cheap to repair any more than today's stuff isn't cheap.
I mean, sorting an IPTO clutch on a Ford especially if fitted with Load Monitor, or any MF with iPTO from the 100 series to the last of the 4300 series was a major, labour intensive operation. All the guts of the transmission had to be removed, whereas today most well designed tractors have the PTO clutch easily accessible and the controls much simplified through the use of electrical servos rather than mechanical linkages and they are far more reliable.

 

[Clive]

It gets to about 3000 hours and hey presto, air con failures, ad-blue faults, pipes leaking, going into limp mode for no good reason and all costs a fortune to fix.

I'm fed up with it frankly. I want to go back to a John Deere 10 series before the build quality of everything fell off a cliff and prices went through the ceiling....

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like this on a regular basis...

I find the opposite, machinery seems much more reliable to me these days - maybe you just have the wrong brands ?

 

[Cowabunga]

Who says it has to be done here? An enterprising person might set up a factory in (say) Poland, where UK based tractors are shipped to, are completely rebuilt and then shipped back again. Or you just do a swap, give them your old one and pay £X on top for a same model rebuilt one.

And anyway there are UK companies who recondition engines and gearboxes who seem to make a living, why not whole tractors and other machinery? There's a lot of £££ between the cost of a new 150hp tractor, and the value of a similar power secondhand knackered tractor. All that cash is available for repair work. What does a JD6130R cost new? £90k if second hand nearly new prices are to be believed. What is a Case MX170 with 15k hours on the clock a) worth and b) cost to have the engine and back end completely rebuilt? I would argue that (a) plus (b) is a lot less than £90k.

If it was viable it would already be done. Indeed it has been tried and failed. It is more viable when the value of the machine becomes far higher than labour and parts prices, obviously, but by the time most tractors will have done 15,000 hours and in need of an overhaul, they will be very old machines.

 

[Cowabunga]

I find the opposite, machinery seems much more reliable to me these days - maybe you just have the wrong brands ?

Or the wrong drivers or indeed the wrong owners.
One of my neighbours, in the 1970's, would absolutely wreck a tractor to scrap status within 3000 hours and if they took a dislike to it, within two years. Absolutely wreck the things.

 

[7610 super q]

I find the opposite, machinery seems much more reliable to me these days - maybe you just have the wrong brands ?

Plenty of threads on this very forum with major Fendt engine and vario gearbox problems.....?‍
Whatever happened to the £25k Fendt engine thread ??‍

 

[Cowabunga]

Plenty of threads on this very forum with major Fendt engine and vario gearbox problems.....?‍
Whatever happened to the £25k Fendt engine thread ??‍

Exactly. Troublesome components that commonly fail are nothing new and will never be eliminated. If you had an early 4355 with 24x24 transmission you would know all about it. If you had a 390 12x12 with a 50p spring that tended to fail inside the gearbox you would wince. If you had a 595 like mine you would jump off a cliff.
I'm using MF as examples here not because they are particularly worse than any other brand, but only because they are the ones I have most experience with. I've mentioned Ford engines and transmissions in a previous post and I could also mention various David Brown, International models and others, all with commonly occurring issues and failure points, many almost catastrophic. Some more trivial, annoying and costly to repair the the time and even today [seeing as labour and parts costs are at today's rate].

 

[7610 super q]

Oh dear, here it is....

fendt engine problems up to £25000 repair bill

I bought a second hand 4 year old 900 series fendt almost a year ago! Been all ok until a couple of months ago when i realised i had a problem with a cam follower! Repair bill looking at been around £25000! On a less than 5 year old tractor! Over hours for any warranty so fendt not interested...

thefarmingforum.co.uk

All makes break down, whether new or old. Difference is, back in the good old days, you'd get a dealer repair bill for £1 or £2k....

 

[Cowabunga]

Oh dear, here it is....

fendt engine problems up to £25000 repair bill

I bought a second hand 4 year old 900 series fendt almost a year ago! Been all ok until a couple of months ago when i realised i had a problem with a cam follower! Repair bill looking at been around £25000! On a less than 5 year old tractor! Over hours for any warranty so fendt not interested...

thefarmingforum.co.uk

All makes break down, whether new or old. Difference is, back in the good old days, you'd get a dealer repair bill for £1 or £2k....

Word was, and I can confirm it first hand, that any tractor that went into the workshop of a local main dealer in the late 1970's didn't come out with a bill of less than £1000

£1000 in 1976 is the equivalent of £6500 today to give you some perspective. Tractors back then were a lot smaller and simpler than today's yet they broke down and wore out at much lower hours on average. They were hardly 300hp Fendts. More likely to be a Ford 6600 or a MF 188. Hardly comparable unless you compared a fleet of between five and ten of these against these against the one moden Fendt. Also of course you would need to figure the cost of five to ten driver's wages into the running cost annually compared to one on the Fendt. Back in those days I remember seven to ten acres a day of silage harvesting was good going on those tractors while today we clear up to 140 acres in a good day. That is the difference and why machinery is bigger and more expensive and often limited to large scale farming and contractors. The total cost per unit of work done is vastly lower today than it used to be. In other words these moden machines have increased productivity and decreased the cost of production very substantially over the 'good old days'.

Trouble is that the income from agricultural produce has generally shrunk to a fraction of what it used to be and needs to be also. That is the farmer's own fault for being so keen to produce more and more with no real market for it, which pushes prices down to about or below the marginal cost of production.