Why is modern machinery so flipping unreliable?!

[2wheels]

You’d best ask @Baldrick for advice ?

saturday night sunday morning syndrome?

 

[7610 super q]

Word was, and I can confirm it first hand, that any tractor that went into the workshop of a local main dealer in the late 1970's didn't come out with a bill of less than £1000

£1000 in 1976 is the equivalent of £6500 today to give you some perspective. Tractors back then were a lot smaller and simpler than today's yet they broke down and wore out at much lower hours on average. They were hardly 300hp Fendts. More likely to be a Ford 6600 or a MF 188. Hardly comparable unless you compared a fleet of between five and ten of these against these against the one moden Fendt. Also of course you would need to figure the cost of five to ten driver's wages into the running cost annually compared to one on the Fendt.

I must have led a charmed life. Off the top of my head...

Ford 4000, loads of PS seals, rear axle seal, and water pump. 10,000 hrs before being traded in.
Case 885xl, TA and clutch problems, but only at 5000 hrs. Was then traded in.
7610, clutch, water pump, and loads of priority valves, 7000 hrs, traded in.
7810, 2 clutches, water pump, PTO seal, 11500 hrs, still here.
TS 115, only did 1500 hrs before being sold, no problems other than an unhealthy appetite for engine oil.
7840, arrived with PTO problems, and a few silly leccy issues, 4000 hrs, still here.
Sanderson FL, hours unknown clock stopped at 7500 hrs in 1995. Porous block.

In 40 years, never had a major breakdown, never had to open up a gearbox / backend.

 

[Goweresque]

If it was viable it would already be done.

Not necessarily. The subsidy money has made it too easy to just chop the old bus in for a shiny new one, so the demand for the rebuild service hasn't been there. When the free money stops, demand for rebuilds will rise, mark my words.

 

[Clive]

Plenty of threads on this very forum with major Fendt engine and vario gearbox problems.....?‍
Whatever happened to the £25k Fendt engine thread ??‍

old machines never broke then ? the past always looks a little rose tinted !

 

[Clive]

Or the wrong drivers or indeed the wrong owners.
One of my neighbours, in the 1970's, would absolutely wreck a tractor to scrap status within 3000 hours and if they took a dislike to it, within two years. Absolutely wreck the things.

probably right - the modern stuff requires different skill sets which some just don’t have as well

it’s also far more important to service properly and on schedule - some still think a farmer workshop oil change every now and then by an untrained tech (ie the driver) is good enough

we maintain our machines dealer serviced like aircraft ! - absolutely on the hour and exactly to manufacture spec using OE oils and parts, when you run minimal labour and tractors you can afford very little downtime

 

[Lowland1]

I bought a Landini 165 all manual because i was worried about electrical problems. A year later I bought a New Holland t6080 all electric in 3 and a half years the New Holland has done 7000 hours in 4 and a half years the Landini has done 6800 hours because it has spent best part of a year in the workshop with more problems than I can mention the biggest problem being a smashed shuttle. Driving the Landini is classed as punishment. I my opinion it is much easier to damage a manual tractor than one with electrics. We have a Renault 696 with over 15000 hours thats on its original clutch thanks to a powershuttle the Landini has had two in its time

 

[Jackov Altraids]

old machines never broke then ? the past always looks a little rose tinted !

A modern engine is more reliable and the cost to repair may be equivalent to that of many years ago.
The difference is the amount there is to go wrong, the difficulty in diagnosing electrical problems and the fact it can't be bodged to get the job finished.
It would be possible to have old style mechanical controls and modern day comfort. Or at least have a better system of isolating/ bypassing electrical systems.

 

[ACEngineering]

That's because he is old and stuck in his ways. My independent mechanics have got all the electronic interrogation computers needed to diagnose all popular vehicles. Most of the time experienced mechanics can diagnose and sort a problem without a computer of any kind anyway. Sometimes a computer saves a lot of time though, and time is money.

And sometimes mechanics cant be arse with working on there own stuff??

 

[Drillman]

Thing is everyone always says the same....


“this new stuff can’t be fixed like stuff built 10-20 years ago”.

i will put money on the same comment been made next year the year after and the year after that repeat etc etc..........

my experience is once stuff gets to 8-10 year old the vast majority of issues have surfaced and any half decent mechanic knows how to fix them.

 

[Clive]

A modern engine is more reliable and the cost to repair may be equivalent to that of many years ago.
The difference is the amount there is to go wrong, the difficulty in diagnosing electrical problems and the fact it can't be bodged to get the job finished.
It would be possible to have old style mechanical controls and modern day comfort. Or at least have a better system of isolating/ bypassing electrical systems.

it’s only harder to fix if you don’t know how or have the right equipment

surely machines that actually tell you what’s wrong with them are easier to diagnose than older stuff that doesn’t ?

when overhead or twin cams, fuel injection l. electronic ignition etc were first introduced i bet all the old boy mechanics claimed no one would be able to understand or fix them !

 

[Lincsman]

After the VW emissions fiasco, it seems to me that manufacturers could easily programme a tractor to, say, have a hydraulic fault at X number of hours. Symptoms are low pump pressure new pump needed. The dealer has it in for a couple of days for show, couple of minutes on the laptop, problem solved, and nice fat bill. I'm sure they do this with washing machines.

Funny you should say that, my computer boffin, who i was talking to about printers only this week had 2 identical printers sent to him as they had failed, after "hacking" into them both had printed the same number of sheets, 6090 or something... dont tell me thats a coincidence.

 

[Dan Powell]

probably right - the modern stuff requires different skill sets which some just don’t have as well

it’s also far more important to service properly and on schedule - some still think a farmer workshop oil change every now and then by an untrained tech (ie the driver) is good enough

we maintain our machines dealer serviced like aircraft ! - absolutely on the hour and exactly to manufacture spec using OE oils and parts, when you run minimal labour and tractors you can afford very little downtime

How would you know? I was under the impression that you didn't do much tractor driving. It really hasn't changed that much in the last ten years. What has changed is the amount of complexity. I'm finding that kit isn't breaking due to any sort of mechanical issues, but due to electrical components or ad blue systems etc. This is despite having an easy life here with low hours per annum and full dealership services.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

it’s only harder to fix if you don’t know how or have the right equipment

surely machines that actually tell you what’s wrong with them are easier to diagnose than older stuff that doesn’t ?

when overhead or twin cams, fuel injection l. electronic ignition etc were first introduced i bet all the old boy mechanics claimed no one would be able to understand or fix them !

They tell you what might be wrong but an honest mechanic will tell you that it isn't right or not telling the whole story an alarming amount of times.
Worse is the intermittent fault. It brings you to a complete standstill but then seems fine hours later when the mechanic gets to it. That gets very expensive, infuriating and causes stress because of the fear of being letdown at any time.
And remember, this is all additional to actual mechanical problems.

 

[Dan Powell]

They tell you what might be wrong but an honest mechanic will tell you that it isn't right or not telling the whole story an alarming amount of times.
Worse is the intermittent fault. It brings you to a complete standstill but then seems fine hours later when the mechanic gets to it. That gets very expensive, infuriating and causes stress because of the fear of being letdown at any time.
And remember, this is all additional to actual mechanical problems.

Yes exactly. It drives me demented when that happens.

Is there any benchmarking done for tractor reliability? I need some facts about the cost of ownership for the next purchase I make.

 

[Lexion1000]

How would you know? I was under the impression that you didn't do much tractor driving. It really hasn't changed that much in the last ten years. What has changed is the amount of complexity. I'm finding that kit isn't breaking due to any sort of mechanical issues, but due to electrical components or ad blue systems etc. This is despite having an easy life here with low hours per annum and full dealership services.

Ad blue has been responsible for most of the problems I’ve had with tractors in the last 8 or so years or whenever it turned up. Other than that most tractors are very reliable these days I think.

 

[Cowabunga]

How would you know? I was under the impression that you didn't do much tractor driving. It really hasn't changed that much in the last ten years. What has changed is the amount of complexity. I'm finding that kit isn't breaking due to any sort of mechanical issues, but due to electrical components or ad blue systems etc. This is despite having an easy life here with low hours per annum and full dealership services.

I find the polar opposite. I can’t remember when any of my machines had an electrical problem more complex than lights or battery last. Every time I’ve suspected it, it has turned out to be a mechanical issue.

 

[Doing it for the kids]

Something else that bugs me is secrecy with workshop manuals. I ordered one from John Deere for my combine years ago but they were never forthcoming. I downloaded one of a website eventually for a few dollars. But what’s the big deal about keeping all the technical info to themselves? I can’t afford to pay their rates for every trivial job and it’s a nuisance if I keep ringing them for settings etc so why don’t the manufacturers make the technical manuals downloadable. Many do , but some don’t.

ask Jcb for a owners and service manual - quoted nearly £500

bought pdfs of both for £45!

 

[farmgineer]

When I was at college, they taught us how to design a life span into the products we were making. This meant you could pretty much guarantee that it wouldn’t fail during the warranty and then get it to fail shortly after. This meant your generate another market place for your next generation product without a couple of years or so... the tutor said it was good for business

 

[Red Fred]

I imagine the makers of all vehicles have offices full of nerds studying the warranty claims and forums, etc, so they can pitch the price of spares just right to finely regulate the economics of buying new vehicles and machines. When just a new PTO shaft for the baler costs the same as 3 decent yearling stores, it makes newer whole balers look a real bargain.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Some people are born old.

How old was you