Working platforms (non integrated) on forklift trucks. IS IT THE LAW?

[Grass And Grain]

Was reading the HSE guidance note PM28 on this subject - in practical terms for me, man baskets on telehandlers.

Read all the guidance and want to work safely and legally.

My question is, is this guidance the law, or just guidance?

 

[TripleSix]

Was reading the HSE guidance note PM28 on this subject - in practical terms for me, man baskets on telehandlers.

Read all the guidance and want to work safely and legally.

My question is, is this guidance the law, or just guidance?

I thought you read it?

It says this at the top.

This guidance is issued by the HSE. The following guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other
action. But if you follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the law.
Health and safety inspectors seek to ensure compliance with the law and may refer to this guidance as illustrat-
ing good practice.
There are restrictions on the circumstances in which non-integrated working platforms can be used. Also, non-
integrated working platforms do not come under the Machinery Directive and should not be CE marked. The
guidance given in Part 1 is intended to help non-integrated working platform suppliers, hirers and users meet
their legal duties. A summary of the relevant legal requirements and how they apply to the supply and use of
non-integrated working platforms is given in Part 2.

 

[Grass And Grain]

I thought you read it?

It says this at the top.

This guidance is issued by the HSE. The following guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other
action. But if you follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the law.
Health and safety inspectors seek to ensure compliance with the law and may refer to this guidance as illustrat-
ing good practice.
There are restrictions on the circumstances in which non-integrated working platforms can be used. Also, non-
integrated working platforms do not come under the Machinery Directive and should not be CE marked. The
guidance given in Part 1 is intended to help non-integrated working platform suppliers, hirers and users meet
their legal duties. A summary of the relevant legal requirements and how they apply to the supply and use of
non-integrated working platforms is given in Part 2.

It's when they write sentances such as...

'To encourage safer working practices,
in these exceptional circumstances, occasional use of non-integrated working
platforms with forklift trucks is allowed in the UK in accordance with this guidance'

...To me, that reads to be quite definitive, and states that the use of non-integrated work platforms is allowed in accordance with the HSE guidance (but by that definition, would not be allowed to be used outside of the guidance).

The guidance seems to state such things quite specifically and authoritatively, but all under the document heading of 'Guidance'. It's a bit confusing and contradictory, hence my original question.

Could be just me being thick (quite possible!), but a definitive statement like that, but under the general heading of 'Guidance' is difficult to decipher if it is mandatory or not Hence my confusion and difficulty trying to unerstand what is law vs what is guidance.

 

[7610 super q]

Gobbledygook. Are man cages f**king legal or not ? I'd like to know before parting with the thick end of £1k for one.

 

[Kidds]

I believe they are legal but only for unplanned work.
Replacing a broken roof sheet from last nights gale = unplanned
Fitting a whole new roof on new shed = planned

 

[Grass And Grain]

This is the guidance...

Working platforms (non-integrated) on forklift trucks - PM28

This guidance is for users, suppliers and hirers of non-integrated working platforms.

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[Fendt516profi]

Gobbledygook. Are man cages fudgeing legal or not ? I'd like to know before parting with the thick end of £1k for one.

Legal if you're disorganized and stumble from one disaster to other illegal if you organize plan and prepare

 

[7610 super q]

Legal if you're disorganized and stumble from one disaster to other illegal if you organize plan and prepare

Yes, that's me.

 

[Fendt516profi]

Yes, that's me.

Crack on

 

[Fendt516profi]

Don't know if they came to investigate how they'd decide that you hadn't planned suppose if roof sheets are in yard could be unplanned but if you have to order them it could be planned

 

[7610 super q]

Everything is planned. It's just some things are planned sooner than others.......

Honestly. If they don't like man baskets, just ban them and be done with it. Have there been any accidents with these recorded ? Loads of near disasters on Youtube with folks using cherry pickers. Driving these things around the yard from a basket detached from the main chassis of the machine doesn't look very safe.......

 

[Grass And Grain]

Having just read the legal section of the guidance, it seems to me that it is the supply of the equipment that is covered by legislation which says they can only be supplied for use in exceptional circumstances.

When 'on farm ' are the man baskets only controlled by PUWER, LOLAR and working at height legislation.

I'm trying to justify me being legal, but HSE's own thought up guidance is difficult to circumnavigate.

I haven't got a cherry picker ticket, but have telescopic handler certificate and working at height training, so to me, my own circumstances would lead me to conclude that I'm better using the handler. Funny feeling HSE wouldn't agree with me.

I've got a job to do where i need a handler on site as a forklift, but there's one little job to do at apex of shed. It's a planned job, but only a 5 minute thing of a total 3 day job, so maybe acceptable. BUT, it's over 6m high, and the HSE made up guidance says not to use a handler with over 6m lift height capacity.

One thing I'm definately not going to do is go up a ladder to do the job and break my back just to keep within their rules. Stuff em, but I'd rather their laws and guidance was a bit more flexible and practical.

 

[7610 super q]

I shouldn't laugh...but......

The last scaffolding I had done " only " cost me £400. I'm thinking this could be the way to go, even for small jobs. Probably not cost effective to clean a 200' length of gutter though......

 

[Stewie]

"

Don't know if they came to investigate how they'd decide that you hadn't planned suppose if roof sheets are in yard could be unplanned but if you have to order them it could be planned

Practically I suspect such a distinction will only matter if someone is killed/badly hurt, so probably by a barrister questioning you in court

 

[Grass And Grain]

I shouldn't laugh...but......

The last scaffolding I had done " only " cost me £400. I'm thinking this could be the way to go, even for small jobs. Probably not cost effective to clean a 200' length of gutter though......

Cherry pickers look dam right dangerous to me.

Shouldn't be too difficult to justify to HSE that a telehandler is much more controllable and safer to use. Plus we are used to driving our telehandlers as opposed to hiring one in for the day which we've never used, even if we might have a ticket.

I can see how a picker might be thought of as safer, but I don't think it's 100% definitely better.

 

[milkloss]

Essentially you can do anything you like....... just don't get caught. If anything goes wrong or the neighbour has the ar5e with you and has a camera to hand then look out.

Otherwise I'm happy in the bucket cleaning gutters out.... I'll even wear a harness and peg myself to the tabs on the bucket if I feel it's dodgy. If I get caught in a man cage I'm in trouble, more likely if I'm in the bucket because it looks worse, but as the man in the air with a trusty driver I feel equally safe in both.

 

[Fendt516profi]

Having just read the legal section of the guidance, it seems to me that it is the supply of the equipment that is covered by legislation which says they can only be supplied for use in exceptional circumstances.

When 'on farm ' are the man baskets only controlled by PUWER, LOLAR and working at height legislation.

I'm trying to justify me being legal, but HSE's own thought up guidance is difficult to circumnavigate.

I haven't got a cherry picker ticket, but have telescopic handler certificate and working at height training, so to me, my own circumstances would lead me to conclude that I'm better using the handler. Funny feeling HSE wouldn't agree with me.

I've got a job to do where i need a handler on site as a forklift, but there's one little job to do at apex of shed. It's a planned job, but only a 5 minute thing of a total 3 day job, so maybe acceptable. BUT, it's over 6m high, and the HSE made up guidance says not to use a handler with over 6m lift height capacity.

One thing I'm definately not going to do is go up a ladder to do the job and break my back just to keep within their rules. Stuff em, but I'd rather their laws and guidance was a bit more flexible and practical.

the answer is go up to 5.9m with handler then get ladder up from cage to where you need to be

 

[Fendt516profi]

I shouldn't laugh...but......

The last scaffolding I had done " only " cost me £400. I'm thinking this could be the way to go, even for small jobs. Probably not cost effective to clean a 200' length of gutter though......

Should really be wearing a harness and attached to basket

 

[Goweresque]

The problem is that HSE want to have it both ways. With one hand they say that its the responsibility of the business owner to assess risk and do things in the safest manner, and its not for them to decree what those methods should be, and with the other hand they want to issue 'guidance' that they interpret themselves as the same as law.

Its having your cake and eating it. Either HSE should issue legally defined methods of doing everything, and if you abide by them you're safe from prosecution regardless of whether an accident happens or not, or they should let us get on assess risk ourselves, and if no accident happens as a result then by definition what was done was safe.

As it stands if you use an objectively a safer method (using a man cage on a forklift rather than a ladder) and don't have an accident, that gets you prosecuted for some reason, whereas if you have an accident using a fully certified cherry picker then its all perfectly OK. The whole thing is madness. Its not about safety at all, its about people who like the power to order other people around, and making sure their jobs and pensions are safeguarded.

 

[betweenthelines]

The Highway Code isn't the law, but if there's an accident and you haven't done as the Code says, you can be taken to Court for Driving Without Due Care and Attention, etc.

Same with HSE guides, they're a guide, but if anything goes wrong, they will be viewed as "best practice"

Having done numerous personal accident investigations as part of my job, it usually comes down to the five Why's

Ask the person who had the accident why they think it happened and when they answer, just ask another Why? question.