Antibiotics.

johnspeehs · Feb 14, 2020

Was at a course last night on proper use of antibiotics as it is now part of fqs here and the vet was saying drugs like Baytril , Marbocel and A180 will be off the market pretty soon. I was interested in what they were saying and the ways we could reduce use of antibiotics but was amazed chatting to a lot of other farmers there who said it was just a box ticking exercise for them and it would be business as usual with regards to how much antibiotics they use. Basically what the instructor was saying that treating individual animals is still a real necessity, treating groups of animals is ok in an outbreak of say enzootic abortion but that just jabbing a compete flock of ewes at say 120 days because you think it might stop abortion starting isn't a good enough reason to do it. A lot of farmers in this area are in for a shock in the near future if they don't start changing their ways, this is just the tip of the iceberg id say.

unlacedgecko · Feb 14, 2020

johnspeehs said:
Was at a course last night on proper use of antibiotics as it is now part of fqs here and the vet was saying drugs like Baytril , Marbocel and A180 will be off the market pretty soon. I was interested in what they were saying and the ways we could reduce use of antibiotics but was amazed chatting to a lot of other farmers there who said it was just a box ticking exercise for them and it would be business as usual with regards to how much antibiotics they use. Basically what the instructor was saying that treating individual animals is still a real necessity, treating groups of animals is ok in an outbreak of say enzootic abortion but that just jabbing a compete flock of ewes at say 120 days because you think it might stop abortion starting isn't a good enough reason to do it. A lot of farmers in this area are in for a shock in the near future if they don't start changing their ways, this is just the tip of the iceberg id say.

who jabs a flock at 120 days to pre-emptively prevent abortion?

johnspeehs · Feb 14, 2020

Plenty here, I'm not sure the exact days but plenty do it, Oxytet is not hard to get here.

Nithsdale · Feb 14, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
who jabs a flock at 120 days to pre-emptively prevent abortion?

Plenty. Because It's cheaper than the abortion vaccine...

You'd cry if you knew just how much blanket use of antibiotics actually goes on in the industry.

I've a neighbour injects every single new born lamb with 1ml penicillin at birth. He is always running to his vet for bottles of this or that throughout the year...

Apart for 2 bottles of Pen&Strep at lambing (for 600 ewes) we don't carry any stock of antibiotics, at all. If there's an issue we get what we need as we need it. Vet commented last time she was here she wished more farms had our approach

johnspeehs · Feb 14, 2020

The guy quoted the use of spectam given to every newborn lamb as a good example, he said theres major resistance to it now and a waste of time.

unlacedgecko · Feb 14, 2020

Nithsdale Farmer said:
Plenty. Because It's cheaper than the abortion vaccine...

You'd cry if you knew just how much blanket use of antibiotics actually goes on in the industry.

I've a neighbour injects every single new born lamb with 1ml penicillin at birth. He is always running to his vet for bottles of this or that throughout the year...

Apart for 2 bottles of Pen&Strep at lambing (for 600 ewes) we don't carry any stock of antibiotics, at all. If there's an issue we get what we need as we need it. Vet commented last time she was here she wished more farms had our approach

Yes. I know of a large store lamb dealer who jabs everything bought in market with Micotil, to prevent lameness.

johnspeehs · Feb 14, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
Yes. I know of a large store lamb dealer who jabs everything bought in market with Micotil, to prevent lameness.

Well that surely can't be coming from a vet???? there's no way you would get that from vets,,,,even here

gone up the hill · Feb 14, 2020

johnspeehs said:
The guy quoted the use of spectam given to every newborn lamb as a good example, he said theres major resistance to it now and a waste of time.

So you take the word of one person as gospel??

Doesn't sound like the bloke has any idea about what he is talking about!

johnspeehs · Feb 14, 2020

Well i suppose you as a farmer will know more than a qualified vet, and might i add a very good one at that,but hey keep on doing what you always do, see how much longer we get to use antibiotics as freely as we do.

unlacedgecko · Feb 14, 2020

gone up the hill said:
So you take the word of one person as gospel??

Doesn't sound like the bloke has any idea about what he is talking about!

there you go. This is from my vet’s farm news letter March 2017.

The key point “Approximately 30% of E.Coli in watery mouth submitted for post-mortem are already resistant to Spectinomycin”

I don’t imagine things have improved in this respect in the last 3 years.

gone up the hill · Feb 14, 2020

johnspeehs said:
Well i suppose you as a farmer will know more than a qualified vet, and might i add a very good one at that,but hey keep on doing what you always do, see how much longer we get to use antibiotics as freely as we do.

Im not saying we shouldn't cut usage if possible but there are plenty of good vets but also some bad ones and it sounds like this vet is the latter as he cannot say with such certainty that spectham doesn't work on any farms now!

johnspeehs · Feb 14, 2020

Thankyou @unlacedgecko , they reckon nearer 80% now,, but you just cant tell some people. Like the guy I do a bit of contract sheperding for, every time the sheep are in its another worm dose, I tried to explain resistance to him, I was talking through my hat.

gone up the hill · Feb 14, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
View attachment 858490

there you go. This is from my vet’s farm news letter March 2017.

The key point “Approximately 30% of E.Coli in watery mouth submitted for post-mortem are already resistant to Spectinomycin”

I don’t imagine things have improved in this respect in the last 3 years.

30% of lambs that die from watery mouth means that in real terms the resistance is much less than 30% across the UK flock as most lambs will not get watery mouth if they were treated at birth!

How do they test if live lambs have resistance to it??

Prevention is better than cure and that goes for any disease!

johnspeehs · Feb 14, 2020

gone up the hill said:
30% of lambs that die from watery mouth means that in real terms the resistance is much less than 30% across the UK flock as most lambs will not get watery mouth if they were treated at birth!

Prevention is better than cure and that goes for any disease!

Yes thats right and the best way to prevent watery mouth is to improve colostrum intake and quality, not blanket antibiotics.

unlacedgecko · Feb 14, 2020

johnspeehs said:
Thankyou @unlacedgecko , they reckon nearer 80% now,, but you just cant tell some people. Like the guy I do a bit of contract sheperding for, every time the sheep are in its another worm dose, I tried to explain resistance to him, I was talking through my hat.

Frequent blanket treatments will speed the rate of resistance horrifyingly.

And then look at people like @Tim W and the Performance Recorded Lleyn group who are working to breed sheep with worm resistance. (There are also many international examples, some of whom I correspond with regularly).

Another issue the industry is polarised on...

gone up the hill · Feb 14, 2020

johnspeehs said:
Thankyou @unlacedgecko , they reckon nearer 80% now,, but you just cant tell some people. Like the guy I do a bit of contract sheperding for, every time the sheep are in its another worm dose, I tried to explain resistance to him, I was talking through my hat.

Please show us evidence that 80% of UK sheep now have resistance to it..

Paul E · Feb 15, 2020

gone up the hill said:
Please show us evidence that 80% of UK sheep now have resistance to it..

FFs, Be told. Spectam on many farms is about as much use as blessing them with holy water.

If yours isn't , then lucky you.
Just because you don't agree with whats said doesn't make it bollox.

Blaithin · Feb 15, 2020

gone up the hill said:
30% of lambs that die from watery mouth means that in real terms the resistance is much less than 30% across the UK flock as most lambs will not get watery mouth if they were treated at birth!

How do they test if live lambs have resistance to it??

Prevention is better than cure and that goes for any disease!

It’s not the lambs that are resistant it’s the bacteria.... You can take the bacteria out of the environment and test its sensitivities. If 30% or 80% of those sensitivities say they’re resistant to the drug then that gives a fairly good indication there’s a large resistance issue going on.

Prophylactic use of drugs does not provide suitable treatment to eliminate most bacteria. Therefore some of the population will survive the treatment and develop resistance to the antibiotic. You may save the lamb by giving it’s immune system a helping hand, but you’re also helping the bacteria evolve resistance.

Farmer Fin · Feb 15, 2020

Blaithin said:
It’s not the lambs that are resistant it’s the bacteria.... You can take the bacteria out of the environment and test its sensitivities. If 30% or 80% of those sensitivities say they’re resistant to the drug then that gives a fairly good indication there’s a large resistance issue going on.

Prophylactic use of drugs does not provide suitable treatment to eliminate most bacteria. Therefore some of the population will survive the treatment and develop resistance to the antibiotic. You may save the lamb by giving it’s immune system a helping hand, but you’re also helping the bacteria evolve resistance.

Even if it still works on your farm then you want to keep it working for as long as possible. Standard advise is no spectam in first week of lambing. Then twins and triplets or anything small or where you are concerned about a lack of colostrum.

Northeastfarmer · Feb 15, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
Yes. I know of a large store lamb dealer who jabs everything bought in market with Micotil, to prevent lameness.

And where’s he getting the micotil from...

Antibiotics.

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