Improving soils&farm for future Generations

Kevtherev · Mar 19, 2019

As I said on another thread we are only guardians of the land.
Now is the time to change systems for future generations.
Less inputs
Crop rotations with livestock
Better use of manures&slurries
Building soil OM
Soil biology

Discuss.

jack6480 · Mar 19, 2019

The gov should pay farmers to pack up and plant trees on the lot
Thankyou goodnight

Simon C · Mar 20, 2019

Kevtherev said:
As I said on another thread we are only guardians of the land.
Now is the time to change systems for future generations.
Less inputs
Crop rotations with livestock
Better use of manures&slurries
Building soil OM
Soil biology

Discuss.

Yup, doing all that, well except livestock but am getting manure from elsewhere.

SilliamWhale · Mar 20, 2019

Thing is everyone thinks theyre already doing it.

Organic farmers think they are
Livestock farmers think they are
No tillers think they are
Veg and spud farmers are feeding an awful lot of people, Broiler producers too...

Treg · Mar 23, 2019

Ag colleges are teaching more about technology in farming rather than teaching about soil health and farm ecology.
There needs to be a change of mindset at all levels of agriculture to make a nation wide change.
I would say I posted on another thread about the need for us all to go Organic ( as some other countries are ) expecting a torrent of abuse & ended up with alot of likes!!! That's very different to even mentioning the word Organic 18months ago, so there definitely is a change of attitude from farmers

Kiwi Pete · Mar 23, 2019

SilliamWhale said:
Thing is everyone thinks theyre already doing it.

Organic farmers think they are
Livestock farmers think they are
No tillers think they are
Veg and spud farmers are feeding an awful lot of people, Broiler producers too...

^^^^^^ spot on.
Many just haven't the financial leeway to make the leap to "Regenerative", or the correct mindset IMO; finances dictate to them how they need to farm, or fear of paying tax!
It's the withdrawls that pay the bills today, but the deposits that save money in future - not always an easy thing to demonstrate when under pressure.

Kiwi Pete · Mar 23, 2019

Kevtherev said:
As I said on another thread we are only guardians of the land.
Now is the time to change systems for future generations.
Less inputs
Crop rotations with livestock
Better use of manures&slurries
Building soil OM
Soil biology

Discuss.

The inputs are the hard ones, Kev.

You'll have noticed that the only reason "I" can do this is because my farm is offshore, where land is "cheap" and "not like ours", a perceived "grass climate" which is about as forgiving as where you are, last summer.

To quote one very wise woman, "your soils will never be sustainable as long as you use synthetic inputs" which was a catalyst for Gabe Brown to change his mindset, as well as crop loss.

As long as you have a forgiving climate, coventional degenerative farming practices will be viable.

Kevtherev · Mar 23, 2019

Spot on peter as always

Kevtherev · Mar 23, 2019

Treg said:
Ag colleges are teaching more about technology in farming rather than teaching about soil health and farm ecology.
There needs to be a change of mindset at all levels of agriculture to make a nation wide change.
I would say I posted on another thread about the need for us all to go Organic ( as some other countries are ) expecting a torrent of abuse & ended up with alot of likes!!! That's very different to even mentioning the word Organic 18months ago, so there definitely is a change of attitude from farmers

Yes it would go a long way to making changes.

onesiedale · Mar 24, 2019

So I had this discussion with the 'younger generation' only this morning.
I am wanting to move the farm to a more holistic/regenerative approach . The difficulty I am having is in convincing the rest of the team that we should be grazing higher covers with more stock density, and leaving residuals well trampled in ' to feed the soil' I say.
But the flat response I get is 'soil doesn't produce the cash, it's the grass that needs eating'

Kiwi Pete · Mar 24, 2019

It's just a form of brainwashing @onesiedale .
We get taught that natural stuff happens at face value, by professors!

So you can't really blame the players in the game: if you put fert on, the grass grows darker, and if you spray this on it all dies; so we begin to believe we make it all happen

It's not really accepted that soil is what we're eating, that your cow is eating microbes that have eaten the grass and thus is basically a planet teeming with life, nor all the interconnectedness that's co-evolved its way to perfection over centuries - we simply assume that we are better and more clever than nature

That's had and will have some devastating consequences, many of which have already needed to be dealt with.

So all you can really do is point out that it's a living soil, and water, and sunlight that feed the cow, grass is merely how the energy flows between them, the interface
This may help you justify keeping a bigger "power cable" to the young'uns

Kiwi Pete · Mar 24, 2019

Healthy soil and health plants are the basis of biological capital.
Biological capital may be your most valuable asset
Biological capital such as healthy soil and plants can save expenses, make more production, make livestock healthier, and more.
Walt Davis 1 | Mar 18, 2019
As farmers and ranchers, we deal with three kinds of capital: Fiscal capital (money) intellectual capital (knowledge) and biological capital (life and the conditions that promote life).

The first two of these are well understood by most people. It is not hard to tell when you don’t know what you are doing or when you are out of money.

Biological capital, which is at least as valuable as the first two, is not nearly so well understood. This is unfortunate because biological capital is real wealth that can be generated solely with well-thought-out management.

For example, biological capital is what renders much of the money, time and effort we spend fighting pests not only unnecessary but counterproductive. It is the healthy soil that grows nutrient-balanced forage that produces healthy and productive animals. It is the animals, bred and raised on this healthy forage and selected to perform under the present management. It is low levels of pathogens, parasites, and pests of both plants and animals, kept under control by the multitude of mutually beneficial relationships that form between all members of the soil-plant-animal-wealth-human complex we call a ranch -- if we give them a chance.

These good things happen when management is directed toward promoting what we want rather than fighting what we don’t want. Biological capital is formed when management – whether natural or human-designed – promotes rather than destroys life. This sounds a little sophomoric but is actually profound. Amazing things happen when management fosters wellbeing of all parts of the soil-plant-animal-wealth-human complex.

I can feel waves of disbelief wafting through the ionosphere: “What do you mean? I should not kill weeds in the corn patch or bugs in the orchard? If I don’t control the pests, they will put me out of business.” The last statement is true. Pests, from horn flies to ox warbles to locoweed and mesquite must be controlled if we are to have viable agriculture. The secret is in how that control is achieved.

Much of modern agricultural practice is not terribly different from burning down the barn because it is infested with fleas. Too often, the cure is worse than the disease. Several years ago, one of the land grant universities set up a demonstration to test “organic agriculture against conventional.” They took a piece of ground that had been in cultivation for years and divided it in half. One half was cropped using all the modern practices: Fertilizer was applied as per soil test, herbicides, insecticides, and so forth. The second half was cropped using nothing but some cow manure. To no one’s surprise, the “organic” plot failed, and the university put out a paper saying organic agriculture does not work.

In reality, organic agriculture works quite well from all standpoints: Productivity, profitability, ecologically, provided that biological capital is in good supply. Building biological capital under conventional management is extremely difficult since most conventional practices such as tillage, fallow and chemicals of all sorts destroy biological capital and the conditions that build it. Rejuvenation must start with the soil, most importantly, with the life in the soil. The organic farmers’ advantage starts when robust and diverse soil life becomes the norm for his operation.

It is this soil life that spoon feeds mineral nutrients to plants in available forms and proper amounts. Well-nourished plants growing in life-filled soil are remarkably resistant to disease and to insect damage. Abundant and healthy soil life is the factor that creates the conditions that control pests of all kinds. Contrary to what the poison peddlers tell us, most soil life forms -- from fungi to bacteria -- are beneficial. Problems arise when our management interferes with natural balance. Soil life also promotes the physical conditions that allow soils to take in and hold both water and air. Life-filled soils, and the plants grown in them, tolerate both drought and flooding much better than soils short of life.

Nutrient-rich forage, when presented with good stockmanship at the proper stage of growth, rules out the need for many of the inputs that reduce the profit margins of most operations. Balanced nutrition, with all essential nutrients present in proper proportions and proper availability forms, builds robust immune systems and healthy animals.

Healthy soils grow healthy plants which grow healthy animals which grow healthy bank accounts. Having ample biological capital is a requirement for creating a ranch that runs on sunshine, rainfall and management.

Kevtherev · Mar 24, 2019

Very true @Kiwi Pete

jack6480 · Mar 28, 2019

Kiwi Pete said:
Healthy soil and health plants are the basis of biological capital.
Biological capital may be your most valuable asset
Biological capital such as healthy soil and plants can save expenses, make more production, make livestock healthier, and more.
Walt Davis 1 | Mar 18, 2019
As farmers and ranchers, we deal with three kinds of capital: Fiscal capital (money) intellectual capital (knowledge) and biological capital (life and the conditions that promote life).

The first two of these are well understood by most people. It is not hard to tell when you don’t know what you are doing or when you are out of money.

Biological capital, which is at least as valuable as the first two, is not nearly so well understood. This is unfortunate because biological capital is real wealth that can be generated solely with well-thought-out management.

For example, biological capital is what renders much of the money, time and effort we spend fighting pests not only unnecessary but counterproductive. It is the healthy soil that grows nutrient-balanced forage that produces healthy and productive animals. It is the animals, bred and raised on this healthy forage and selected to perform under the present management. It is low levels of pathogens, parasites, and pests of both plants and animals, kept under control by the multitude of mutually beneficial relationships that form between all members of the soil-plant-animal-wealth-human complex we call a ranch -- if we give them a chance.

These good things happen when management is directed toward promoting what we want rather than fighting what we don’t want. Biological capital is formed when management – whether natural or human-designed – promotes rather than destroys life. This sounds a little sophomoric but is actually profound. Amazing things happen when management fosters wellbeing of all parts of the soil-plant-animal-wealth-human complex.

I can feel waves of disbelief wafting through the ionosphere: “What do you mean? I should not kill weeds in the corn patch or bugs in the orchard? If I don’t control the pests, they will put me out of business.” The last statement is true. Pests, from horn flies to ox warbles to locoweed and mesquite must be controlled if we are to have viable agriculture. The secret is in how that control is achieved.

Much of modern agricultural practice is not terribly different from burning down the barn because it is infested with fleas. Too often, the cure is worse than the disease. Several years ago, one of the land grant universities set up a demonstration to test “organic agriculture against conventional.” They took a piece of ground that had been in cultivation for years and divided it in half. One half was cropped using all the modern practices: Fertilizer was applied as per soil test, herbicides, insecticides, and so forth. The second half was cropped using nothing but some cow manure. To no one’s surprise, the “organic” plot failed, and the university put out a paper saying organic agriculture does not work.

In reality, organic agriculture works quite well from all standpoints: Productivity, profitability, ecologically, provided that biological capital is in good supply. Building biological capital under conventional management is extremely difficult since most conventional practices such as tillage, fallow and chemicals of all sorts destroy biological capital and the conditions that build it. Rejuvenation must start with the soil, most importantly, with the life in the soil. The organic farmers’ advantage starts when robust and diverse soil life becomes the norm for his operation.

It is this soil life that spoon feeds mineral nutrients to plants in available forms and proper amounts. Well-nourished plants growing in life-filled soil are remarkably resistant to disease and to insect damage. Abundant and healthy soil life is the factor that creates the conditions that control pests of all kinds. Contrary to what the poison peddlers tell us, most soil life forms -- from fungi to bacteria -- are beneficial. Problems arise when our management interferes with natural balance. Soil life also promotes the physical conditions that allow soils to take in and hold both water and air. Life-filled soils, and the plants grown in them, tolerate both drought and flooding much better than soils short of life.

Nutrient-rich forage, when presented with good stockmanship at the proper stage of growth, rules out the need for many of the inputs that reduce the profit margins of most operations. Balanced nutrition, with all essential nutrients present in proper proportions and proper availability forms, builds robust immune systems and healthy animals.

Healthy soils grow healthy plants which grow healthy animals which grow healthy bank accounts. Having ample biological capital is a requirement for creating a ranch that runs on sunshine, rainfall and management.

For farmers to get to this point should they stop applying all chemicals and wait a few years till things start to work for themselves

Kiwi Pete · Mar 28, 2019

jack6480 said:
For farmers to get to this point should they stop applying all chemicals and wait a few years till things start to work for themselves

Definitely wean their biome off it, I'd never advocate "going cold turkey" unless chemicals and acids had been used really sparingly in the past.
Also there is little point if your farm system haemorrhages carbon like a harpooned whale!
You need to stop the losses and lack of biodiversity first, in my opinion.
It may take your land 2 or 20 years to be able to channel it's own phosphate, similar to how long it takes someone kicked off the dole to find a job - it varies
Some cropping farms would definitely take a while to get their whole soil resource to function properly, after so much stress.

But yes, ideally both chemical and physical abuses need to stop for optimum biological function and cycling of nutrients/water/air

Farmersdaughter · Mar 31, 2019

The hardest bit it getting from the degraded soils to good biological active soils. I know how I would like the soil to be but how to change it and the mind set of most farmers is the hard bit. I am slowly changing things on our farm but the hardest bit for me is convincing my father and others my ideas are not crack pot.
We are mixed dairy beef and arable, with a lot of pp and also mostly heavy clay. The grass land I think is easier to improve biological, but the only way I can see to improve the arable land put it back into grass for a number of years.
What do you think is the best measure of a good soil? I am a scientist and like to measure things, I can dig up some soil and just by handling tell it is good or bad but would like a measure. Thinking maybe worm count.

Kiwi Pete · Apr 1, 2019

Farmersdaughter said:
The hardest bit it getting from the degraded soils to good biological active soils. I know how I would like the soil to be but how to change it and the mind set of most farmers is the hard bit. I am slowly changing things on our farm but the hardest bit for me is convincing my father and others my ideas are not crack pot.
We are mixed dairy beef and arable, with a lot of pp and also mostly heavy clay. The grass land I think is easier to improve biological, but the only way I can see to improve the arable land put it back into grass for a number of years.
What do you think is the best measure of a good soil? I am a scientist and like to measure things, I can dig up some soil and just by handling tell it is good or bad but would like a measure. Thinking maybe worm count.

Sometimes your own nose and eyes are the best tools.
You could maybe try Haney tests or respiration tests (these aren't perfect) but often it can be simple management changes that are the most sustainable improvement in terms of encouraging biological activity - working out how to make similar profits with less inputs, and having a bit of faith in the processes..

Likewise I have a very scientific mind, but when it comes to soil you soon realise that chemistry and physics are really quite redundant in terms of finding solutions - great for problems

onesiedale · Apr 1, 2019

Farmersdaughter said:
The hardest bit it getting from the degraded soils to good biological active soils. I know how I would like the soil to be but how to change it and the mind set of most farmers is the hard bit. I am slowly changing things on our farm but the hardest bit for me is convincing my father and others my ideas are not crack pot.
We are mixed dairy beef and arable, with a lot of pp and also mostly heavy clay. The grass land I think is easier to improve biological, but the only way I can see to improve the arable land put it back into grass for a number of years.
What do you think is the best measure of a good soil? I am a scientist and like to measure things, I can dig up some soil and just by handling tell it is good or bad but would like a measure. Thinking maybe worm count.

Maybe a measure of Organic Matter. That will give a measurement that can be monitored and benchmarked

jack6480 · Apr 6, 2019

Kiwi Pete said:
Definitely wean their biome off it, I'd never advocate "going cold turkey" unless chemicals and acids had been used really sparingly in the past.
Also there is little point if your farm system haemorrhages carbon like a harpooned whale!
You need to stop the losses and lack of biodiversity first, in my opinion.
It may take your land 2 or 20 years to be able to channel it's own phosphate, similar to how long it takes someone kicked off the dole to find a job - it varies
Some cropping farms would definitely take a while to get their whole soil resource to function properly, after so much stress.

But yes, ideally both chemical and physical abuses need to stop for optimum biological function and cycling of nutrients/water/air

My dad had never bothered using a lot of chemical except a weed spray in the spring and I can remember crops always looked well and plenty of grain but the grain was usually always small. I’m going back to this approach and will see if I can improve the grain. I remember he never had any trouble with slugs or other pests but that might just be me thinking it was all rosey.

holwellcourtfarm · Apr 15, 2019

Farmersdaughter said:
The hardest bit it getting from the degraded soils to good biological active soils. I know how I would like the soil to be but how to change it and the mind set of most farmers is the hard bit. I am slowly changing things on our farm but the hardest bit for me is convincing my father and others my ideas are not crack pot.
We are mixed dairy beef and arable, with a lot of pp and also mostly heavy clay. The grass land I think is easier to improve biological, but the only way I can see to improve the arable land put it back into grass for a number of years.
What do you think is the best measure of a good soil? I am a scientist and like to measure things, I can dig up some soil and just by handling tell it is good or bad but would like a measure. Thinking maybe worm count.

Helping others to see things differently is always going to be a challenge. It's a bit like trying to help an alcoholic mate. You can see that they are killing themselves and that there very much IS another way to live but until THEY are ready to accept help there nothing you can do.

Could you persuade them to let you manage a small area entirely YOUR way for several years so you can SHOW them the effect?

Good luck.

Improving soils&farm for future Generations

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