Argentina de-criminalises elective abortion up to 14 weeks

[Danllan]

Just had a brief chat with a friend in Argentina, he lives and works in Buenos Aires, but is from the rural West.

We'd agreed to chat today some time ago, but until he mentioned it I was entirely unaware of the big news in Argentina. He is, by most measures a social liberal, but he's also a Roman Catholic, so is greatly saddened that his country's legislature has made this move - far, far more than I might have anticipated. He is a medical doctor, although working in a non-clinical, research role and, usually, is a pretty cool headed chap.

Obviously this hasn't been an issue in the UK for a very long time so, although still an emotive subject, it probably isn't clear to many here just how divisive an issue it can be, and - if he is to be believed (and I do) - much of the argument there would make even our strongest disagreements about Brexit look relatively minor. He says it has crossed political, religious, age, sex and every other divide you can think of, and many families have seen ruptures over this issue.

I'm a rational atheist, so don't have any religious dogma steering me toward my own position of being 'pro-choice'. But I have some friends who are religious and yet think a woman should have a right to choose, and others who have no religious belief but think that all life is sacred from the moment of conception...

Point is, there are many other things to be discussed / argued about, constructively or otherwise, and a great many things that are, in their moment, of far greater importance than what we've been kicking the arse out of.

 

[Hindsight]

Just had a brief chat with a friend in Argentina, he lives and works in Buenos Aires, but is from the rural West.

We'd agreed to chat today some time ago, but until he mentioned it I was entirely unaware of the big news in Argentina. He is, by most measures a social liberal, but he's also a Roman Catholic, so is greatly saddened that his country's legislature has made this move - far, far more than I might have anticipated. He is a medical doctor, although working in a non-clinical, research role and, usually, is a pretty cool headed chap.

Obviously this hasn't been an issue in the UK for a very long time so, although still an emotive subject, it probably isn't clear to many here just how divisive an issue it can be, and - if he is to be believed (and I do) - much of the argument there would make even our strongest disagreements about Brexit look relatively minor. He says it has crossed political, religious, age, sex and every other divide you can think of, and many families have seen ruptures over this issue.

I'm a rational atheist, so don't have any religious dogma steering me toward my own position of being 'pro-choice'. But I have some friends who are religious and yet think a woman should have a right to choose, and others who have no religious belief but think that all life is sacred from the moment of conception...

Point is, there are many other things to be discussed / argued about, constructively or otherwise, and a great many things that are, in their moment, of far greater importance than what we've been kicking the arse out of.

Mmmm Dan. Now are we casting a fly, spreading peace and goodwill to all men (and women/Transgender LGBQT) or flying a flag?

I do concur. And am pleased you are taking an interest in the plight of us followers of The Woolwich Arsenal in our hour of need.

Insofar as the momentous decision in Argentina, hopefully it will assist those females who had the need previously to have an illegal abortion, which I assume almost certainly would have been a back street potentially bodged job.

 

[Danllan]

Mmmm Dan. Now are we casting a fly, spreading peace and goodwill to all men (and women/Transgender LGBQT) or flying a flag?

I do concur. And am pleased you are taking an interest in the plight of us followers of The Woolwich Arsenal in our hour of need.

Insofar as the momentous decision in Argentina, hopefully it will assist those females who had the need previously to have an illegal abortion, which I assume almost certainly would have been a back street potentially bodged job.

I'm highly critical of the new identity politics and general 'wokeness'; and I have no idea whatsoever about the Woolwich Arsenal, beyond its munitions factory origin and its vaguely funny name.

 

[ollie989898]

As above, agree that when it's your body: it's your choice. Not for the state, the Church or any other fudgeer to stick their oar in.

 

[Lowland1]

I personally have a big problem with abortion except for medical reasons. At present the world seems to be attempting to keep people alive at great cost to society yet it seems it’s ok to kill an embryo or fetus that will turn into a human being. However that is just my opinion I am not going to blow up abortion clinics but let us be clear abortion is killing.

 

[Danllan]

I personally have a big problem with abortion except for medical reasons. At present the world seems to be attempting to keep people alive at great cost to society yet it seems it’s ok to kill an embryo or fetus that will turn into a human being. However that is just my opinion I am not going to blow up abortion clinics but let us be clear abortion is killing.

Two questions come to mind: 1) would your 'medical reasons' include mental health and well-being?, and 2) do yo think it as 'bad' to kill an embryo of, say, 16 cells at three days, as a foetus of 6 months?

 

[Lowland1]

Two questions come to mind: 1) would your 'medical reasons' include mental health and well-being?, and 2) do yo think it as 'bad' to kill an embryo of, say, 16 cells at three days, as a foetus of 6 months?

're.medical reasons ask a doctor not me. Abortion in my opinion is an operation to remove a living being carried out by a third party. It's really not something I am going to discuss on a forum it's my opinion no more than that.

 

[Danllan]

're.medical reasons ask a doctor not me. Abortion in my opinion is an operation to remove a living being carried out by a third party. It's really not something I am going to discuss on a forum it's my opinion no more than that.

Fair enough but, if that's the case, isn't it a bit odd to throw your hat into the ring on a forum...?

 

[Pasty]

Personally I think there could be legit grounds for it up to a certain age, which I am not sure about. Medical, genetic etc.

The big question for me is who's right is it to choose? It takes two to tango but only one can end the dance? Where is the father in this? When you do the deed with a man, you are entering into a contract if it's consensual. But its the woman's body once she's up the stick right? Hypergamy. Woman considers herself first, kids next, then the cat, then the dog and the bloke is somewhere between the goldfish and the hamster.

 

[Hindsight]

Fair enough but, if that's the case, isn't it a bit odd to throw your hat into the ring on a forum...?

Good try D. Tweak that line as you reel back in, yep, sometimes that little twitch of the lure can just interest or irritate a previously canny old fish to bite --- and then, it's in play.

 

[Danllan]

Personally I think there could be legit grounds for it up to a certain age, which I am not sure about. Medical, genetic etc.

The big question for me is who's right is it to choose? It takes two to tango but only one can end the dance? Where is the father in this? When you do the deed with a man, you are entering into a contract if it's consensual. But its the woman's body once she's up the stick right? Hypergamy. Woman considers herself first, kids next, then the cat, then the dog and the bloke is somewhere between the goldfish and the hamster.

Can't see what's generally hypergamous, obviously individual pairings might be, but not all.

Good try D. Tweak that line as you reel back in, yep, sometimes that little twitch of the lure can just interest or irritate a previously canny old fish to bite --- and then, it's in play.

No, you misconstrue again, I just pointed out that the post was internally contradictory.

 

[ollie989898]

I personally have a big problem with abortion except for medical reasons. At present the world seems to be attempting to keep people alive at great cost to society yet it seems it’s ok to kill an embryo or fetus that will turn into a human being. However that is just my opinion I am not going to blow up abortion clinics but let us be clear abortion is killing.

Let's be frank: we all have a problem with abortion. I don't like it, it's a distasteful business and hardly ideal in the circumstances. However, when you weigh up the possible alternatives, including the potential affect on the health of the mother, or people who might even be driven in desperation to some dodgy backstreet and dangerous procedure, suddenly my opposition to it wanes.

Doctors don't need to have opinions on the matter. They can agree to carry out the procedure or, they are perfectly entitled to decline because of their personal beliefs but they must direct their patient to someone else able to carry out the procedure.

The whole subject is a slippery slope, contraception in some ways, can be related as well. Emergency contraception/morning after pill, for example. Is that not murder also?

 

[Lowland1]

Good try D. Tweak that line as you reel back in, yep, sometimes that little twitch of the lure can just interest or irritate a previously canny old fish to bite --- and then, it's in play.

It's a bit like someone going round knocking drinks over in the pub looking for a fight ( pubs remember them?) Because he's bigger than everyone else.

 

[Mek]

I think that unless the state is prepared to adopt and raise and be financially responsible for all unwanted babies then the state has no say in the matter and the decision is entirely down to the woman carrying the foetus.

 

[Danllan]

It's a bit like someone going round knocking drinks over in the pub looking for a fight ( pubs remember them?) Because he's bigger than everyone else.

That's rubbish, it is raising a subject for discussion that is in the news. You joined the discussion and then complained about it...

 

[Lowland1]

That's rubbish, it is raising a subject for discussion that is in the news. You joined the discussion and then complained about it...

Not really you like to try and belittle people who have different views to you it’s really a form of bullying.

 

[Hindsight]

It's a bit like someone going round knocking drinks over in the pub looking for a fight ( pubs remember them?) Because he's bigger than everyone else.

Tis fun though. And, just like the pub, sometimes the chats are actually interesting and thought provoking.

 

[Danllan]

Not really you like to try and belittle people who have different views to you it’s really a form of bullying.

Oh you are claiming victim status, sorry, I presumed you were a grown up, my mistake...

Point out, precisely, where the 'bullying' has been, I posted, you posted, I asked two questions and... that's bullying? Pathetic and ridiculous, the truth seems to be that you just don't want to discuss this, so why join in? Bloody stupid and, latterly, nauseatingly self-righteous.

 

[Lowland1]

Oh you are claiming victim status, sorry, I presumed you were a grown up, my mistake...

Point out, precisely, where the 'bullying' has been, I posted, you posted, I asked two questions and... that's bullying? Pathetic and ridiculous, the truth seems to be that you just don't want to discuss this, so why join in? Bloody stupid and, latterly, nauseatingly self-righteous.

Ha true to form.

 

[Hindsight]

.

It's a bit like someone going round knocking drinks over in the pub looking for a fight ( pubs remember them?) Because he's bigger than everyone else.

No, I do not quite see D as you do. I find his posts interesting. As I do yours and actually pretty much most of the posts made on here. Quite a bizarre place really. Anyway, of more immediate importance I truly hope your father is well and as a family you are managing the situation - have not seen any recent reports of his health, so hope I am in line. And best wishes for the New Year to you, and family.