Cattle breeding

[M-J-G]

As @Cowgirl pointed out it would be unfair to hijack the breed society thread, I thought I'd continue on here.

 

[M-J-G]

What do I expect from my breed society? A lot more than I get! The Hereford Cattle Society rules say their aims and objectives are: “to maintain unimpaired the purity of, and improve the breed of cattle known as Herefords, and to promote impartially the breeding of all the various tribes, families and strains of such cattle.”
DNA evidence showed they completely failed to maintain purity, and their idea of promotion is to use the attributes of the Traditional Hereford to describe the modern bloodlines, without ever mentioning the original population cattle in any breed promotional literature. They are obsessed with show ring successes and pretty well nothing else.
We have been members since 2011, necessary if we wish to register calves, and apart from direct queries to head office which have been answered, and the actual registration and DNA certificates, there is no benefit to us of being members. The cattle we have are a relatively small percentage of the population but as the original population they are important to many owners, yet they are excluded from Society shows and sales - in fact the modern polled is promoted to the exclusion of everything else and has been for many years, so they have failed in both aspects of their objectives.

No offence, but the Hereford breed would have been extinct in the UK if something hadn't been done to make them more commercially viable. The same goes for the AA and the BSH, both of which have been more successfully adapted than the Hereford. The breed seems to neither be a terminal or a maternal type these days, poor milking ability and slow growth seems to be the main issues.

As for purity, you seem to have an issue with the inclusion of other genetics to alter breeds, but the truth is no breed is pure, sure some are purer than others but most came about by crossing different breeds.

I was at the calf show in Stirling and one class of AA bulls had 2 origional type AA bulls alongside modern types, and the difference in size for age was staggering. I'm guessing they'd have been half the weight, if not less.
What are farmers and breed Societies expected to do? We're not running a museum

 

[M-J-G]

As usual you are making the assumption that our cattle are museum pieces without ever having seen them or knowing anything about them. There were always larger strains in the breed which could have been selected for without the introduction of other breeds which was done without the approval of HCS members, and by the way, appears to be mainly Simmental, so by your assertion that the modern Hereford is still not much good - what do we blame?
What do you think the OP breeders have been doing for the last 50 years? Our calves grow at 0.8 - 1.2 kg / day producing a 280 - 300kg R4L or H carcase at under 30 months off grass alone with no other feed - yes they could be bigger but there are bigger cattle than ours in the nation al herd and it will be interesting to see what the future holds for animals with large carcase weights. Local butchers prefer our type of cattle. No other main breed has such a divergence of DNA from its original population as far as we know. The Limousin society has deregistered cattle because of fraud - why is that different, just that it happened years ago? One rule for some and not for others. As I did not see the "original type" AA bulls that you are referring to I cannot comment on them , but I am sure that they would not be Native OP Angus, because there are very few of them - there are poor cattle in every herd, even those with big names.
My comments about the second objective remain the same.

Hereford bashing is a popular sport on here but it was not the purpose of the thread. The topic was breed societies and their charges but also I think what people get for their hard earned money. Other breed societies presumably have aims and objectives and some have been more successful than others in carrying those out - what I would like to know is which societies are most inclusive for their members - sounds as though the Galloway people are a nicer bunch.
[/QUOTE

I did not suggest that your cattle are museum pieces, I've only seen a photo or two so I wouldn't know, it's the fact that something had to change otherwise the breed would have disappeared, and the old type cattle would have put most farms under, and to have kept going the way they breeds were taking the industry would have been little other than preserving a part of history.
Plus the breed is now in the polled category, which is the way all breeds will end up IMO

The modern day Herefords that I deal with is nothing like a Simmental, and if they are related they should have put another heavy dose of it in as it must only be the 5 to 10% of them that can milk enough to rear a good calf that picked up off the Simmental's maternal ability, and pretty much none of them have the growth rate to match.

I have said before that we look after a herd of Hereford and Hereford X cows for a farmer and one of my Sim cows is running along side them, where she is about the smallest cow on the place with calf that's growing at a rate of about double that of the pure native calves, with no creep.

The handful of good rearing Hereford cows I have dealt with are good cows and I cannot fault them at all, it's the other 90 odd percent that are the issue, as an overfat cow with a hairy gutty calf that looks like an orphan is no use to anyone.

As for the drive for showing within the Hereford society, that is driven partly by the number of hobby breeders that have to a point boosted the breeds UK numbers, although they don't help prices, as they aren't good at putting rubber rings on bull calves abd they are prepared to sell bulls for the price of a store bullocks.

 

[CharcoalWally]

@Cowgirl , it is certainly possible to access old world genetics in any breed as long as AI straws have been collected and stored from bulls in the past.

Its not that long ago that I was on a local dairy farm looking at an Ayrshire heifer calf who's father had been calved himself around 1960. Perfectly possible to have AA calves the same way if semen has been stored.

 

[CharcoalWally]

Surely it's more important to any breed that it appeals to a wide pool of commercial customers over anything else. The arguments about breed purity or otherwise tend to mostly only interest the breed afficionados. Most commercial farmers are more focussed on calving , growth rates , fleshing ability and popular the cattle are to sell in their region etc.

And if that's been achieved by an injection of genetics from outside the breed in questions own gene pool , then the commercial farmer probably won't feel too concerned by that. Just look at the sheep world, and where that's currently heading with an ever spiralling number of cross breeds selling easily to commercial shepherds.

A breed with little commercial interest isn't really going anywhere.

 

[M-J-G]

@Cowgirl , it is certainly possible to access old world genetics in any breed as long as AI straws have been collected and stored from bulls in the past.

Its not that long ago that I was on a local dairy farm looking at an Ayrshire heifer calf who's father had been calved himself around 1960. Perfectly possible to have AA calves the same way if semen has been stored.

The cattle I saw were described by the breeder as "Native Angus"

 

[Blaithin]

Actually had a good troll on a lady about this on Facebook recently. Coincidentally it was regarding Herefords as well since she was of the opinion there's no such thing as a Black Hereford despite being shown registries to the contrary.

Either way.... it's a noble and good aim to preserve heritage lines/breeds BUT where does one draw the heritage status? And why does that aim have to be at the exclusion of all other things?

Angus are no longer close to Lowline... even Lowline probably aren't even that close to heritage Lowline animals.

Limousine aren't the same animals they were even twenty years ago.

Simmental and Shorthorn have been bred to a level that there are now different "breeds" for beef and for milk.

The fact is the drive for breed selection, even if it were to be kept within just the confines of the breed itself, have manipulated all commercial breeds into directions different from their "original" or "heritage" traits. Whatever those may be.

Some breeds are bigger - Angus, Galloway, Hereford. Some breeds are smaller - Charolais, Simmental. Some are completely different colours - Gelbvieh, Limousine, Simmental. Some geographic locations are completely different in all ways from other places.

When breeding for old world Herefords what should ones goal be? Only horned? Polled technically isn't a heritage trait. Some say it's bred from a mutation within the horned population (which would mean polled Herefords with no other breed influence would be about as inbred as Holsteins currently are) or it's bred with the influence of Galloway to help enforce the polled gene. In which case no polled Hereford could really be considered pure or heritage. I know some old style farmers who refuse to use polled Hereford because they feel they are a different breed entirely with poor traits.

If registries were all to be strict about purity there's also a number of breeds which would be extinct due to low numbers and poor genetic variation. In which case, which percentage of off breed would be allowed to help boost a heritage breed genetically.

However at the end of the day it's going to come down to market demand. A producer needs to make money. In current demands heritage breeds are not known to be able to perform most of these tasks well, they require niche marketing and a more specific approach. The market and access of cattle and breeders in the 18th century differed vastly from today, why would we presume their animals would work for us and why do we feel they should?

Again, at what level should we dedicate heritage status and put efforts into saving traits. Mid 1900's because there may still be semen stored for us to work with? 17-18th century because we have photos and descriptions to aid us in our breeding goals? Or should we focus on breeds like Maronesa and Barrosa because they're some of the closest to original Aurochs?

 

[Gulli]

No offence, but the Hereford breed would have been extinct in the UK if something hadn't been done to make them more commercially viable. The same goes for the AA and the BSH, both of which have been more successfully adapted than the Hereford. The breed seems to neither be a terminal or a maternal type these days, poor milking ability and slow growth seems to be the main issues.

As for purity, you seem to have an issue with the inclusion of other genetics to alter breeds, but the truth is no breed is pure, sure some are purer than others but most came about by crossing different breeds.

I was at the calf show in Stirling and one class of AA bulls had 2 origional type AA bulls alongside modern types, and the difference in size for age was staggering. I'm guessing they'd have been half the weight, if not less.
What are farmers and breed Societies expected to do? We're not running a museum

The top show winning breeders appear to only be interested in growth and its coming at the expense of calving ease in most cases.

The breed society are fairly irrelevant to what I'm trying to do here but I need them so i can register animals.

Agreed that the breed lacks a sensible direction , either needs to be terminal or maternal it's not a dual purpose breed

 

[CharcoalWally]

The cattle I saw were described by the breeder as "Native Angus"

Which one would assume infers that the calves may be the results of old world bloodlines?

 

[M-J-G]

Which one would assume infers that the calves may be the results of old world bloodlines?

They sure looked like it, and if they aren't pure "old style' the part of them that is has managed to shrink the weight for age by about 50%, so I'd hate to think what a full bred one would do.

If it takes to about 30 months to get these little cattle to finish at half sensible weights, I'm pretty sure that an animal that will finish in half that time will be more profitable.

It has to be kept in mind that, even in the olden days when these old populations of natives were widespread, they were still finished inside on oats, turnips and hay.
Hence why the old stone built cattle buildings have stone built troughs in them
Feeding cattle grain isn't a new or subsidy driven thing, it was happening in our father's and grandfather's day.

As an aside point, on a year like this where there's been thousands of tonnes of rejected barley, oats and wheat, apart from a bio digester, what are the other options for turning that grain into money.

 

[CharcoalWally]

If it takes to about 30 months ti get these little cattle to finish at half sensible weights, I'm pretty sure that an animal that will finish in half that time will be more profitable.

Oh if the stories that I hear from the older generation are anything like correct , then I think they took rather longer than that to finish.

 

[Woolless]

@M-J-G @CharcoalWally I think that, although you have made one or two fair points, your posts have gone down the road of breed knocking rather than addressing the point made by @Cowgirl about her breed society.

The Hereford Cattle Society's stated aim is to maintain the purity of the breed. There is genetic proof that this has not been the case and modern Herefords are effectively a separate breed from OP cattle. This has made them more suited to current systems and many are now polled, which could also be taken as a plus point. But nonetheless, somebody somewhere told lies about a pedigree and nothing has been done. The other stated aim of the HCS is to promote the breeding of all strains impartially and yet the OP cattle are excluded from breed sales and are generally ignored.

And so the HCS have failed in both their main aims but are still happy to take fees off the OP breeders. Very poor show, I would say.

 

[Woolless]

The top show winning breeders appear to only be interested in growth and its coming at the expense of calving ease in most cases.

The breed society are fairly irrelevant to what I'm trying to do here but I need them so i can register animals.

Agreed that the breed lacks a sensible direction , either needs to be terminal or maternal it's not a dual purpose breed

That's a fair question, what is the niche for the breed currently? Simmentals have carved out a fair niche as a dual-purpose breed, so that can be done.

I would suggest that they need to be easy calving as a starting point. How about as a sire of a suckler cow, out the beef or dairy herd? I would imagine dairy herds account for most bull sales. Although the AA has rather cornered the native beef niche on a commercial scale, the steers are still a decent prospect for a grass-based system.

What does @tinsheet or @exmoor dave think?

 

[CharcoalWally]

@M-J-G @CharcoalWally I think that, although you have made one or two fair points, your posts have gone down the road of breed knocking rather than addressing the point made by @Cowgirl about her breed society.

The Hereford Cattle Society's stated aim is to maintain the purity of the breed. There is genetic proof that this has not been the case and modern Herefords are effectively a separate breed from OP cattle. This has made them more suited to current systems and many are now polled, which could also be taken as a plus point. But nonetheless, somebody somewhere told lies about a pedigree and nothing has been done. The other stated aim of the HCS is to promote the breeding of all strains impartially and yet the OP cattle are excluded from breed sales and are generally ignored.

And so the HCS have failed in both their main aims but are still happy to take fees off the OP breeders. Very poor show, I would say.

@Woolless .

I have posted several times on this thread, and absolutely nowhere have I knocked any breed. I have discussed the possibility of accessing genetics from previous decades , and how breeds can obsess too much about what you and Cowgirl seem to refer to as breed purity at the expense of appealing to commercial farmers. Nothing to do with breed knocking.

It is in fact what pedigree breeders should hear - the reasons why commercial farmers do not connect and engage with their chosen breed. Pure gold information for a marketing man.

Ignore at your peril.

 

[Gulli]

That's a fair question, what is the niche for the breed currently? Simmentals have carved out a fair niche as a dual-purpose breed, so that can be done.

I would suggest that they need to be easy calving as a starting point. How about as a sire of a suckler cow, out the beef or dairy herd? I would imagine dairy herds account for most bull sales. Although the AA has rather cornered the native beef niche on a commercial scale, the steers are still a decent prospect for a grass-based system.

What does @tinsheet or @exmoor dave think?

A lot of buyers around here prefer them over the Angus for native sire schemes, they work well on cross bred herds as they mark the calves well and you dont end up milking Angus cows!

Calving ease has to be top of the list and they cross well with lots of breeds to leave a good female in my opinion. All my bulls go to dairy herds but that's partly to do with living in dairy country.

 

[Woolless]

Fair enough @CharcoalWally , breed knocking was a bit harsh.

I fully agree that pedigree breeders should listen to the commercial man or risk them being left on the shelf. Breeds evolve over time to suit the market or pay the price. But breed societies are there to ensure the integrity of pedigrees as registered. Obsessing over purity is what they are paid to do by their members! In some cases, breeds decide that an introgression of other genetics is what's required. That's fine, as long as it's down in black and white and everyone knows what's happening.

I can't remember if your cattle are pedigree or not but, assuming that they are, what if you decided that a good slug of Hereford blood was what was required to improve them. I'm sure that you wouldn't put your Simmy bull's name down on the calf's registration?

 

[CharcoalWally]

Fair enough @CharcoalWally , breed knocking was a bit harsh.

I fully agree that pedigree breeders should listen to the commercial man or risk them being left on the shelf. Breeds evolve over time to suit the market or pay the price. But breed societies are there to ensure the integrity of pedigrees as registered. Obsessing over purity is what they are paid to do by their members! In some cases, breeds decide that an introgression of other genetics is what's required. That's fine, as long as it's down in black and white and everyone knows what's happening.

As has already been mentioned, several of the Native breeds decided on just that course of action as a quick fix to remedy what commercial farmers perceived as being wrong with their breed.

How open they all were about this has probably been forgotten over time but I'd think it would be in varying degrees. Breed societies don't obsess over purity when they see it putting them at a disadvantage! Breed societies will do whatever they think will put them one up over their competition. And if that means a little mix n' match, then so be it.

As I said earlier , most commercial farmers won't be too concerned about any of this, as long as they are getting a bull that does what they want.

 

[Woolless]

As has already been mentioned, several of the Native breeds decided on just that course of action as a quick fix to remedy what commercial farmers perceived as being wrong with their breed.

How open they all were about this has probably been forgotten over time but I'd think it would be in varying degrees. Breed societies don't obsess over purity when they see it putting them at a disadvantage! Breed societies will do whatever they think will put them one up over their competition. And if that means a little mix n' match, then so be it.

As I said earlier , most commercial farmers won't be too concerned about any of this, as long as they are getting a bull that does what they want.

Your last statement is true but those farmers also expect to buy a bull of breed X, not breed X plus Y.

 

[Chae1]

We have a Hereford bull we cross with our Salers and are happy with him. The Hereford calves consistently have increased dlwg and higher weights than calves from Saler bull on saler cows.

We did look for a longtime and never saw anything at shows etc that impressed. This one came up for sale at local mart. Sire was a American bull. He has thrown a couple huge calves which haven't survived. I think this proves the points above about the breed being crossed with more extreme breeds to improve confirmation.

We keep heifers as replacements and finish bull calves on farm.

 

[M-J-G]

@M-J-G @CharcoalWally I think that, although you have made one or two fair points, your posts have gone down the road of breed knocking rather than addressing the point made by @Cowgirl about her breed society.

The Hereford Cattle Society's stated aim is to maintain the purity of the breed. There is genetic proof that this has not been the case and modern Herefords are effectively a separate breed from OP cattle. This has made them more suited to current systems and many are now polled, which could also be taken as a plus point. But nonetheless, somebody somewhere told lies about a pedigree and nothing has been done. The other stated aim of the HCS is to promote the breeding of all strains impartially and yet the OP cattle are excluded from breed sales and are generally ignored.

And so the HCS have failed in both their main aims but are still happy to take fees off the OP breeders. Very poor show, I would say.

The point had drifted off society talk as cowgirl had pointed out, which is why I moved off the thread.
I have spoken about other old fashioned cattle and not all about Hereford.

Aren't OP Herefords allowed to attend sales or be part of other society events? I wouldn't know.

Nobody nescessarily told any lies in the pedigrees unless 100% the society aimed to breed cattle only, but many native breeds have allowed scope for other genetics to be used, Sussex looking a bit more like a Lim these days, Luing looking a bit more like a Saler or a Lim, open herdbook between BSH and Lincoln Red, Maine Anjou used in the BSH, the list goes on.

Most other breeds offer an upgrade option (I don't know about Herefords) which allow 97% and upwards to be registered pedigree, but many parts of the world allow anything above 7/8 pure to be registered pedigree.
So if you import semen you may not be the purest of the pure any more, but if you don't you may end up with an inbred population.

And for those obsessed purists, have a look at the Lim society issues, and look at how without DNA testing things can turn out to be different to how they are supposed to.
Who knows if the wrong bull or a x-bred rigg served a pedigree cow 50 or 100 years ago and the so called PURE cattle might not be pure after all and in the absence of regular DNA testing it would never have been detected. Hypothetical I know, but if 100% is all that will do, then proving what's 100% could be quite the task.