Destroying immunity...?

[Vader]

Just an idle thought.
A farmer i knew was going to go high health status on herd.
Started with jonas testing.
1/4 of the herd came back with high results and recommended culling.
He culled most, but few of his best he did not and kept them isolated on a different farm.

Had then tested year after and results were low, so kept another year.
Next test showed some up and some down.
Said did not make sense and so abandoned the high health idea and put the cows back into the main herd. All stayed another 6-7 years and were culled due to old age.

So...
Were those cows immune to jonas ?
If we cull every cow that tests high, even if healthy, then are we potentially removing future immunity?
Not sure how many are culled each year with it.
But would it be worth the cost for the gov to have a isolation unit that all cattle that are healthy and high jonas be sent to and keep few years.
The ones who remain healthy, breed off them.
There could be a big pool of cattle thaT carry but are immune and we cull.

Might even be same for tb..??

 

[GeorgeK]

I agree it's the same with bird flu, swine fever etc and it means the animals can never develop genetic immunity. These mass culls kill everything even the symptomless animals that are naturally resistant to the disease, you'd think those would be the ones to breed from.

 

[Bill the Bass]

Just an idle thought.
A farmer i knew was going to go high health status on herd.
Started with jonas testing.
1/4 of the herd came back with high results and recommended culling.
He culled most, but few of his best he did not and kept them isolated on a different farm.

Had then tested year after and results were low, so kept another year.
Next test showed some up and some down.
Said did not make sense and so abandoned the high health idea and put the cows back into the main herd. All stayed another 6-7 years and were culled due to old age.

So...
Were those cows immune to jonas ?
If we cull every cow that tests high, even if healthy, then are we potentially removing future immunity?
Not sure how many are culled each year with it.
But would it be worth the cost for the gov to have a isolation unit that all cattle that are healthy and high jonas be sent to and keep few years.
The ones who remain healthy, breed off them.
There could be a big pool of cattle thaT carry but are immune and we cull.

Might even be same for tb..??

This isn’t how the vets see it, come the 1st of July, the guys who run CHeCs are going to stop even breeding from the offspring of those that have a high blood test (antibodies in the blood) but no disease present in the dung.

Not sure if this is right or wrong, it’s too complicated for a lay man like myself.

 

[neilo]

Johnnes is particularly difficult to blood test for iirc, with positive animals going up & down. Negative animals stay low I think, but not looked at it for a decade.

 

[Exfarmer]

Johnnes is a very difficult disease to control. Ot is related to both TB and Leprosy, diseases man has not yet conquered, have them under control in some circumstance but not beaten

 

[Tim W]

Principle is sound but Johnes may not be the best example?
EG: there are genotypes within some sheep populations that have a slower transmission rate of MV in infected flocks

 

[Bill the Bass]

The blood test is simple, they either have antibodies in the blood or they don’t albeit at differing levels as far as I understand. The problem is the PCR dung test that could say the animal is not shedding one day but she could well be the next. This along with the long incubation period for the disease, makes it a serious ‘iceberg’ disease and one that as far as I can see, you can only really manage the risk. From what I know so far though I think relying on building up a level of immunity would be a bit of a fools errand.

We are culling anything that has positive bloods which this year has been a right cu nt of a job with two real good, breedy cows going, thankfully they are just second and third calvers with no heifers to weed out. A shitty disease in all aspects.

When I watch cull cows sold at Carlisle the johnes/crones theory becomes scary and not something the industry should be blasé about.

 

[unlacedgecko]

The blood test is simple, they either have antibodies in the blood or they don’t albeit at differing levels as far as I understand. The problem is the PCR dung test that could say the animal is not shedding one day but she could well be the next. This along with the long incubation period for the disease, makes it a serious ‘iceberg’ disease and one that as far as I can see, you can only really manage the risk. From what I know so far though I think relying on building up a level of immunity would be a bit of a fools errand.

We are culling anything that has positive bloods which this year has been a right cu nt of a job with two real good, breedy cows going, thankfully they are just second and third calvers with no heifers to weed out. A shitty disease in all aspects.

When I watch cull cows sold at Carlisle the johnes/crones theory becomes scary and not something the industry should be blasé about.

Do you think johnes cows should not enter the human food chain?

 

[Northeastfarmer]

Do you think johnes cows should not enter the human food chain?

I believe they pose no risk to human health. I’d rather eat one without though

 

[Purli R]

Do you think johnes cows should not enter the human food chain?

Is the meat infectious???

 

[Bill the Bass]

Do you think johnes cows should not enter the human food chain?

I dont think the link is scientifically proven, it’s theoretical as I understand. The risk would be more about sh!t getting in water on drinking water catchments I would think. I was more indicating about the widespread nature of the disease as opposed to the health risk or the risk to the food chain, which I don’t think there are any really.

 

[Dairyfarmerswife]

This isn’t how the vets see it, come the 1st of July, the guys who run CHeCs are going to stop even breeding from the offspring of those that have a high blood test (antibodies in the blood) but no disease present in the dung.

Not sure if this is right or wrong, it’s too complicated for a lay man like myself.

We aren't in a health scheme but have a policy that any Johnes positive or medium cow, and their offspring, is bred to beef (not Dairy), since it has been our experience that daughters of positive cows will often go positive. We dont cull for Johnes alone but it forms part of our culling decisions.

 

[Vader]

We aren't in a health scheme but have a policy that any Johnes positive or medium cow, and their offspring, is bred to beef (not Dairy), since it has been our experience that daughters of positive cows will often go positive. We dont cull for Johnes alone but it forms part of our culling decisions.

But have any ever gone down sick?
Farmer i talked of never has had a animal show signs even years after the tests.
Thats the point.
Are we culling animals that don't need culling?
His herd is still going with no losses to johnes despite it being there.

 

[Hilly]

But have any ever gone down sick?
Farmer i talked of never has had a animal show signs even years after the tests.
Thats the point.
Are we culling animals that don't need culling?
His herd is still going with no losses to johnes despite it being there.

They can test posstive but have no clinical signs, they might not have signs for a day or a decade you take your chance , not for me I cull em .

 

[Bojangles]

I’m a firm believer that johnes will be the stick we are beaten with next.
Although there is currently no concrete evidence that MAP is transferred through milk or meat it is a good excuse to try and put folk off meat.
The most compelling argument against it is that statistically farmers do not have a higher instance of crones when compared with all other industries.
If we aren’t catching it through ingesting MAP off our hands and tails in the face then it’s safe to say we don’t get it from them BUT I would bet it will be used against us

 

[Dairyfarmerswife]

But have any ever gone down sick?
Farmer i talked of never has had a animal show signs even years after the tests.
Thats the point.
Are we culling animals that don't need culling?
His herd is still going with no losses to johnes despite it being there.

Oh definitely. We've sent two this year alone because they started to go downhill. And we aren't a high yielding herd putting cows under a lot of pressure. But we don't cull specifically for Johnes - we just don't breed replacements from them.

 

[Dry Rot]

I don't know about cattle but there was a professional dog breeder between the wars who deliberately introduced canine distemper into his kennels and was able to advertise his dogs as proofed against the disease before the introduction of the vaccine. His breeding policy selected for dogs immune to the disease.

Just to give you an idea of his operation, they destroyed 450 dogs in his kennel on the orders of the government on the outbreak of WWII 'to conserve food supplies'. That's one way to combat disease - but I don't suppose the vets would be very pleased, The annual vaccination must be like BPS to many vets!

 

[S J H]

I’m a firm believer that johnes will be the stick we are beaten with next.
Although there is currently no concrete evidence that MAP is transferred through milk or meat it is a good excuse to try and put folk off meat.
The most compelling argument against it is that statistically farmers do not have a higher instance of crones when compared with all other industries.
If we aren’t catching it through ingesting MAP off our hands and tails in the face then it’s safe to say we don’t get it from them BUT I would bet it will be used against us

I think the whole ‘high herd health’ will be the stick to beat us with. We‘ll have to join a scheme to be farm assured.

 

[Bill the Bass]

We aren't in a health scheme but have a policy that any Johnes positive or medium cow, and their offspring, is bred to beef (not Dairy), since it has been our experience that daughters of positive cows will often go positive. We dont cull for Johnes alone but it forms part of our culling decisions.

CHeCs scheme rules are a bit fuzzy around Johnes in my interpretation. They just recommend you don’t breed from offspring, but you have to have a plan in place to deal with positives at blood. This will all change on the 1st of July where no offspring can be bred from or sold for breeding from a positive blood.

Unfortunately CHeCs have not consulted with their members about this, it’s just being done to them - rightly or wrongly. Coinciding with a lot of bulls being sold off farm this last year, I can see some breeders dropping out of Johnes testing.

 

[AftonShepherd]

We aren't in a health scheme but have a policy that any Johnes positive or medium cow, and their offspring, is bred to beef (not Dairy), since it has been our experience that daughters of positive cows will often go positive. We dont cull for Johnes alone but it forms part of our culling decisions.

What happens to any beef heifers you breed out of those cows?