Hi Protein Forage Crops

[Dog Bowl]

It's my first post within the 'Hollistic Farming' section after stumbling across it so go easy on me!

After ordering more compound and blends today it's got me seriously questioning where I'm going with things...

Suckled angus calves get access to a blend whilst still on the cow a few weeks before weaning, then I turn the taps on and feed more blend once fully weaned.

My question is I seem to achieve great growth rates on rotational grazing that I want to replicate this when it comes to winter housing. Can I replace concentrates fed to these weaned calves (380kg av at 10 months old) with baled red clover silage? Lucerne? Cut concentrate use entirely? These are natives after all.

Im just chewing things over in my mind and wanting a change in direction with how I rear these cattle. I've got the spring and summer rotational grazing down to a tee, and it feels like a back step when I have to start feeding these calves concentrates!

I'd love the TFF thoughts on this? Am I barking? Is it do able? Any experience out there?

 

[kill]

I have had baled silage tested this year and highest protein achieved has been 19% on third cut red clover but have also had 18.2% and 17% protein but it takes some feeding even to dairy cows as it will just pass almost straight through them. Found the easiest way is to feed less lively bales in the evening with one haylage bale as they clear that last and put in highest protein bales first thing in the morning when haylage won't have been long gone and it acts as a fibre block .
I have a feeder wagon but hate using it due to extra costs and time .
Lucerne is a waste of time on acid soils as roots can be up to 6ft deep and no lime will ever sort acid at that depth.( This is what my feed rep told me)

 

[hendrebc]

How good is the silage you normally make? Someone in our grazing group made really good grass silage. Can't remember the analysis though. But using one of the feed calculators on the beef and lamb NZ website for a target growth rate of 1kg a day (I think) they worked out that if they fed the recommended 2kg of youngstock cake they would only get an extra 20grams of growth!
Maybe you don't need to feed quite as much as you do now if at all.
I get what you mean though I'll be trying some red clover next time I reseed a field.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

@tinsheet is feeding red clover silage to beef cattle I think?

Looking to do similar here. Used to use red clover silage for lambing ewes (Who are now on all grass) but don't have the short term leys with rc any more but want to get some more into pp.
Sainfoin another possibility?

 

[Dog Bowl]

So I have some RC in already. Only a smallish acreage which I bale and keep seperate to feed to the cows at calving. I'm thinking of upping this acreage if the clover is really usable for rearing the weaned calves.

Alternatively have also thought of using a cutting platform of say 50 to 60 acres which I would multi-cut every 30 or so days, producing very high protein grass silage in bales. My thoughts are cattle will be sh1tting though the eye of a needle on this stuff if not balanced properly? So then I'd need to balance the forage with something, complicating the system and not achieving what I want!

I just feel there are real opportunities out there with protein crops/forages coupled with the right type of animal that are not being explored enough!

 

[tinsheet]

First year with RC silage, first year I've had to clip backs!
Weighing steers next week, they've been doing a kilo or so a day on pp and herbal leys, ( last years calves) now on red clover with a bit of hay for fibre, as it will go straight through them
Just weaned this year's calves, been on grass and mum nothing else will get a weaning weight next week for them, they've gone on to hay and arable silage, (which goes in with red clover undersown)
They will get red clover once they've eaten all that up, will weigh again in January to see how their doing.
Guessing their weight at the moment be an average of 300kg at 7months ish!
All Angus x Herefords.

 

[Dog Bowl]

First year with RC silage, first year I've had to clip backs!
Weighing steers next week, they've been doing a kilo or so a day on pp and herbal leys, ( last years calves) now on red clover with a bit of hay for fibre, as it will go straight through them
Just weaned this year's calves, been on grass and mum nothing else will get a weaning weight next week for them, they've gone on to hay and arable silage, (which goes in with red clover undersown)
They will get red clover once they've eaten all that up, will weigh again in January to see how their doing.
Guessing their weight at the moment be an average of 300kg at 7months ish!
All Angus x Herefords.

Music to my ears. Just what I wanted to hear. So, no hard feed fed at all?? Are you taking through to finishing? If so, what weights/age are you achieving?

 

[tinsheet]

Music to my ears. Just what I wanted to hear. So, no hard feed fed at all?? Are you taking through to finishing? If so, what weights/age are you achieving?

No hard feed at all, first year finishing got about a dozen nearly fit averaging about 540kg at the moment, aiming for 600kg, they are 20 months currently, as said before weighing next week so will see how they've done now they are in, not expecting huge gains will be happy with a kilo a day, I left them out a couple of weeks to long on not so good ground, and housing them will check them for a week or so,
Got a neighbour doing the same system with stabilizers feeding them just rc, (when their housed) he's getting them gone by 18 to 20 months.

 

[Nick Adams]

I have had baled silage tested this year and highest protein achieved has been 19% on third cut red clover but have also had 18.2% and 17% protein but it takes some feeding even to dairy cows as it will just pass almost straight through them. Found the easiest way is to feed less lively bales in the evening with one haylage bale as they clear that last and put in highest protein bales first thing in the morning when haylage won't have been long gone and it acts as a fibre block .
I have a feeder wagon but hate using it due to extra costs and time .
Lucerne is a waste of time on acid soils as roots can be up to 6ft deep and no lime will ever sort acid at that depth.( This is what my feed rep told me)

We grew a field of lucerne here after the oil crisis in the early '70s it did really well. Initially we made hay with it but as we moved more towards silage - and nitrogen - it got lost in the clamp and we didn't continue. Soils are naturally acidic pretty light, we adjoin gravel quarries.

Wouldn't bother now as red clover is more powerful. Have both included in herbal ley mixture.

Don't take advice from feed reps!

 

[tinsheet]

We grew a field of lucerne here after the oil crisis in the early '70s it did really well. Initially we made hay with it but as we moved more towards silage - and nitrogen - it got lost in the clamp and we didn't continue. Soils are naturally acidic pretty light, we adjoin gravel quarries.

Wouldn't bother now as red clover is more powerful. Have both included in herbal ley mixture.

Don't take advice from feed reps!

Wise words

 

[EddAke]

It’s definitely the future! We were originally making silage and grazing all on permanent pasture and supplementing with home grown barley and a protein pellet. I’m increasing the cow numbers so I can use all the pp for grazing and make (better) silage from leys in the arable rotation (and provide a good break crop!) Have drilled a mix of IRG, red and crimson clover and vetch this autumn to mow next spring and hoping that the quality is enough to drop the supplementary feeding? Long term plan is to grow cow numbers and fill all the permanent pasture with cows and calves, and then add herbal leys to mob-graze the yearling cattle and then finish them with no/little concentrates. Running Stabiliser cows and I’m convinced this can be done. I’m fussy on retaining heifers so it’s taking a long time to build cow numbers and move over but it has to be the right direction.

 

[shields kaiser]

It’s definitely the future! We were originally making silage and grazing all on permanent pasture and supplementing with home grown barley and a protein pellet. I’m increasing the cow numbers so I can use all the pp for grazing and make (better) silage from leys in the arable rotation (and provide a good break crop!) Have drilled a mix of IRG, red and crimson clover and vetch this autumn to mow next spring and hoping that the quality is enough to drop the supplementary feeding? Long term plan is to grow cow numbers and fill all the permanent pasture with cows and calves, and then add herbal leys to mob-graze the yearling cattle and then finish them with no/little concentrates. Running Stabiliser cows and I’m convinced this can be done. I’m fussy on retaining heifers so it’s taking a long time to build cow numbers and move over but it has to be the right direction.

Out of interest Edd, do you think its possible to finish Stabiliser bullocks/heifers not retained at 16 or 17 months on summer grass (2nd summer)? I'm at the start of converting to the breed and finding the weight/fat the put on at grass is unreal.

 

[shields kaiser]

As mentioned, the problem we found with high clover silage with high protein was that the low fibre in it from feeding it alone made the dung like water! It can definately be solved by feeding higher fibre Hay or Silage first in the morning for example, rationing the amount they are given, and then feeding the high Protein/low fibre stuff as a top up. Not easy to measure out silage mind you, but we got there in the end by splitting bales. All the best

 

[EddAke]

Out of interest Edd, do you think its possible to finish Stabiliser bullocks/heifers not retained at 16 or 17 months on summer grass (2nd summer)? I'm at the start of converting to the breed and finding the weight/fat the put on at grass is unreal.

I’m sure it is possible if you get everything right. I went to see James Evans, who has one of the best Stabiliser herds in the country genetically, to look at his stock bulls in the spring - he has gone organic, partly by request of his landlord, but now is very convincing on what can be achieved from grazing alone. He is working towards finishing bulls under 16 months with no concentrates (Or fertiliser!). That sounds profitable!
The maintenance cost of the stabiliser cows is certainly fantastic - apart from a little silage in the last 3 weeks up to calving, we feed them only old pasture, rough hay and barley straw and struggle to get them down to a good caving weight by the end of the winter.

 

[Dog Bowl]

Been stewing over this high protein crop thing for a few days now since starting the thread. I am feeling really keen to have a go at it.

Got some poor grass that is due to come out in the spring. I am thinking here I can perhaps sow a crop tailored exactly how I want to grow some reliably high protein.

So, what would folk decide to grow?
I am thinking the following:
Vetch
Crimson Clover
Red clover
PRG
Spring Barley

My thoughts behind it are: the vetch and crimson clover will provide protein and act as a nurse crop. The PRG and red clover will add additional sugars and proteins to the mix. PRG will hopefully aid fermentation too. Lastly the spring barley will act as a nurse crop but also add a little starch and fibre to the forage.

This mix will then see the crimson, vetch and barley die out after a first cut and then will hopefully see the ryegrass and red clover take over for a second cut and then can stay down for a further year before being pulled out for wheat.

Would appreciate all your thoughts!

 

[hendrebc]

Been stewing over this high protein crop thing for a few days now since starting the thread. I am feeling really keen to have a go at it.

Got some poor grass that is due to come out in the spring. I am thinking here I can perhaps sow a crop tailored exactly how I want to grow some reliably high protein.

So, what would folk decide to grow?
I am thinking the following:
Vetch
Crimson Clover
Red clover
PRG
Spring Barley

My thoughts behind it are: the vetch and crimson clover will provide protein and act as a nurse crop. The PRG and red clover will add additional sugars and proteins to the mix. PRG will hopefully aid fermentation too. Lastly the spring barley will act as a nurse crop but also add a little starch and fibre to the forage.

This mix will then see the crimson, vetch and barley die out after a first cut and then will hopefully see the ryegrass and red clover take over for a second cut and then can stay down for a further year before being pulled out for wheat.

Would appreciate all your thoughts!

Crimson clover would probably grow back a bit. Could add some Persian clover to it as well. I think barenbrug do a mix called protoplus with those 2 and I think Italian ryegrass. I was going to put some under spring barley for something to graze lambs on after but never got round to it. Planning on a more long term red clover ley instead maybe this spring or late summer. I like your idea of putting the crimson as a nurse crop though.
@Kevtherev @Great In Grass

 

[Samcowman]

I was planning on using spring beans as a nurse crop for the red clover I should be putting in in the spring but spring bean seed is looking very short so I may look into crimson or vetches as the nurse crop now.

 

[beefandsleep]

Why do you think it needs a nurse crop?

 

[Samcowman]

Couple of reasons get more production in the first year and also to outcompete undesireables. Used spring beans for a grass reseed this year which worked really well.

 

[som farmer]

this is really interesting, as we are looking this way, I have grown r clover, and Lucerne as straight crops, for dairy, the biggest problem being, as we grow maize as well, it is to much grazing removed, and our focus went to maize. We are all being told that multi cut silage, is the way forward, and you can easily produce top quality silage, but its very costly, and you really need small pits, like the dutch, which most farms don't have. We have been looking at all sorts of ways to reduce our costs, last year, we grew hybrid rye, cut a large crop, approaching 20 ton/acre, followed by maize, which did well, and analysed well. We have 19 acres rye in the ground, but failed to get another 9 acres in. We have decided not to grow maize, as our spring calving herd, doesn't warrant the cost, and peas/barely undersown will go behind it. I have always been very quick, to plough and reseed. We have bought a vaderstat drill, this year, with the aim of overseeding, when leys look thin. And pp or very long leys, if correctly managed, can be highly productive, and we will go as far as we can, to max litres from forage. and grow rape, to outwinter the cows,
that's our plans, not to sure if its holistic, but it would seem we are heading that way, and I allways listen to other peoples views, and would welcome comments.