How to prove it was a bull?!!

[Ludan]

Good evening,
I wanted to see if this has happened to anyone else?!
Sadly we have gone down with TB in our herd for the first time since having our cattle. We lost some nice beasts including some young breeding bulls. We couldn’t believe it!
Anyway to make matters worse, the abattoir that slaughtered them have told the APHA that one of our bulls was a steer.
At first we thought it must be a clerical error, and the lady dealing with this matter said she would look into it further.
We received a voicemail today asking if we’ve got evidence that it was definitely a bull and not a steer. So it looks like they’re adamant it’s a steer.
We have kept all our bulls entire in recent years so they can sell for breeding or meat.
They’re all pedigree registered which would be pointless for a steer.
We have a picture of the bull in question but unfortunately his leg is in the way of the evidence!! It’s frustrating as he was the best one out of the bunch..
Has anyone had this happen before? We can’t understand it. How do they get something so wrong like this?
It will devalue that beast significantly.
What should we do? Should I ring the abattoir to find out what’s gone on? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[twizzel]

Crikey, can the vet who did the skin test vouch for you? Would the pedigree certificate not help your case too- could the society confirm he was registered as a bull? Sorry, it makes an already stressful situation even more so doesn’t it.

 

[Farmer Fin]

Weight for age at slaughter? CCTV at the abattoir?

 

[Werzle]

Seems bloody odd why it would concern the slaughterhouse, there not paying the compensation. If it was the otherway round and they werent happy with bull beef you could maybe understand it. Perhaps they think your trying to fiddle the compo as a young ped bull is worth 3-4 times what a steer is paid out at

 

[gone up the hill]

Good evening,
I wanted to see if this has happened to anyone else?!
Sadly we have gone down with TB in our herd for the first time since having our cattle. We lost some nice beasts including some young breeding bulls. We couldn’t believe it!
Anyway to make matters worse, the abattoir that slaughtered them have told the APHA that one of our bulls was a steer.
At first we thought it must be a clerical error, and the lady dealing with this matter said she would look into it further.
We received a voicemail today asking if we’ve got evidence that it was definitely a bull and not a steer. So it looks like they’re adamant it’s a steer.
We have kept all our bulls entire in recent years so they can sell for breeding or meat.
They’re all pedigree registered which would be pointless for a steer.
We have a picture of the bull in question but unfortunately his leg is in the way of the evidence!! It’s frustrating as he was the best one out of the bunch..
Has anyone had this happen before? We can’t understand it. How do they get something so wrong like this?
It will devalue that beast significantly.
What should we do? Should I ring the abattoir to find out what’s gone on? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks

Are you in Wales?

Surely the valuation's were done and agreed before they went to slaughter??

As for the TB, no one likes to accept for the first time they have TB in their cattle herd and look for reasons that the test results were incorrect but the reality is that you do have TB in your cattle and that is because the badgers/ deer around you are infected with TB and gave it to your cattle and no point beating yourself up as there is nothing you could have done to stop the local wildlife from infecting your cattle.

Quite possible a badger rehoming charity is/has rehomed TB infected badgers in your local area.

 

[gone up the hill]

Seems bloody odd why it would concern the slaughterhouse, if it was the otherway round and they werent happy with bull beef you could maybe understand it.

I think you have got mixed up, it was valued as a bull as a TB reactor but when killed the slaughterhouse has told AH that its a steer.

If the OP has had several animals go down then they will certainly have TB in both their cattle and the local wildlife.

 

[Werzle]

I think you have got mixed up, it was valued as a bull as a TB reactor but when killed the slaughterhouse has told AH that its a steer.

If the OP has had several animals go down then they will certainly have TB in both their cattle and the local wildlife.

You have lost me

 

[gone up the hill]

You have lost me

The OP cattle were TB reactors.

Worth more as breeding bulls than just steers if in Wales.

ABB is saying one was a steer so the OP will get less compo.

( is the way i am reading their post )

TB is sh!t and the OP has my full sympathy, the TB issue should never have been allowed to get out of control in the wildlife by the powers that be like it has done so the last 20 years!

 

[som farmer]

when we went down, 1 i/c tested x2, 1 borderline he failed, and 2 bulls, a barren cow, at abattoir, went down, she cultured negative, on the rest, no visual lesions, and nothing cultured, the only positive, was the value of 1 ped bull, couple of k over what we paid for him ! But just so unnecessary, when the cause is known.
And likewise, sympathy to the OP, it really does screw things up, for a min of 120 days. Despite the cull, it is slowly creeping towards us, and we plan, as if we go down, as many stock we want to sell, gets a pre m test, no barreners, until they are safely gone.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Are you in Wales?

Surely the valuation's were done and agreed before they went to slaughter??

As for the TB, no one likes to accept for the first time they have TB in their cattle herd and look for reasons that the test results were incorrect but the reality is that you do have TB in your cattle and that is because the badgers/ deer around you are infected with TB and gave it to your cattle and no point beating yourself up as there is nothing you could have done to stop the local wildlife from infecting your cattle.

Quite possible a badger rehoming charity is/has rehomed TB infected badgers in your local area.

I think you may have got a bit mixed up too Guth. Where does the op deny they have tb?

 

[flywheel]

I think you best contact the abottair tomorrow & ask what proof they have your bull is a steer.?

 

[Woolless]

The beast in question must have been classified as a steer by the grader. Have you got the kill sheet @Ludan ? That seems very odd when it was the best of the bunch and so would presumably have very obvious bull characteristics which any grader should have picked up on, even assuming that its knackers were off before the scale.

 

[Ludan]

Thanks for all your replies. We accept we have TB although it was a shock. We’ve been clear for years despite having a lot of deer about as we’re by a forest.
The compensation had been agreed and all beasts accounted for. It would never enter our head to send a steer as it would be picked up straight away. Plus we wouldn’t have registered a steer as a bull as you have to pay to register each one and it would only be going for meat. So all of the males on the farm are entire. This bull was over 12 months old and was shaping up well. In fact the best two out of the bunch are now gone with tb. In the photo of the bull that we have he looks heavier set than a steer would be.
It’s enough of a mess, but now we need to prove one was a bull!
I’m grateful for the suggestions about cctv in the abattoir and the deadweight etc as I’ll query all this. I felt I ought to ring the abattoir to ask what’s gone on? The only thought is that they’ve got someone else’s steer and maybe chopped the tags out of the ears and got them mixed up? I’d have thought that it would be strictly regulated like how we are with movements and traceability. So if say 5 steers went in from one holding and 3 bulls from another it would be simple to work out. But if someone else has sent a steer as a bull and it was next in line to our bull, then maybe there’s the problem.
I can’t see any financial advantage for the abattoir, whether it’s a bull or a steer. If it was us trying to fiddle a steer through, I wouldn’t be kicking up a fuss about it now, but I felt it worth letting others know that it’s best to take photos as they’re going on the lorry as I wish we had done!
I’ll speak with the vet who did the test. They knew they were all bulls as we had separated them from the heifers and if we’d needed any castrating since registering them as pedigree, the vet would have done it. He’s known them from birth so that may help us out.
We’re located in Shropshire and the compensation difference between a bull and a steer is a few thousand pounds.
The lady had agreed the compensation, but then rang after they were slaughtered to say one was found to be a steer. It just doesn’t make sense.
Thanks again for the help. We’ll keep battling on!

 

[Happy at it]

Put it back to the valuer, surely she knows what a bull is and valued it accordingly?Did she put a DNA tag in at valuation with you?

 

[matthew]

Put it back to the valuer, surely she knows what a bull is and valued it accordingly?Did she put a DNA tag in at valuation with you?

Good point. When a vet finds a reactor on test reading day, a gov.uk tag is put in at the time.
This is said to prevent 'fraud' on the farmer's side.

I'm assuming that Shropshire is on Tabular valuation, but that your animals qualified for individual valuations as not enough prices in the marketplace to average the tabular?

In this instance, a Government green reactor button tag may help you and the vets should have the cross reference with the animal's eartag..

Your situation is bad enough, without this extra hassle.

 

[Ludan]

Put it back to the valuer, surely she knows what a bull is and valued it accordingly?Did she put a DNA tag in at valuation with you?

She’s just rang and has said if the vet can write us a letter it will help. The vet put green reactor tags in which I believe are dna tags? But I’d guess it depends on what’s happened to the carcass since? It could just be a clerical error at the slaughterhouse but it’s causing us some stress! The lady has been sympathetic so hopefully it will get sorted. We won’t let one leave the place if we react again until it’s photographed and a form is signed by the lorry driver acknowledging what they are.
The driver told us that he’s noticed more cases of tb since the badger cull. He thinks it’s moving badgers onto other holdings. We’ve seen quite a few muntjac deer about recently. I’ve a feeling it’s them more so than the badgers. They seem to travel about a fair bit and get around our farm yard, whereas the badgers seem to keep away. Thanks again

 

[Al R]

She’s just rang and has said if the vet can write us a letter it will help. The vet put green reactor tags in which I believe are dna tags? But I’d guess it depends on what’s happened to the carcass since? It could just be a clerical error at the slaughterhouse but it’s causing us some stress! The lady has been sympathetic so hopefully it will get sorted. We won’t let one leave the place if we react again until it’s photographed and a form is signed by the lorry driver acknowledging what they are.
The driver told us that he’s noticed more cases of tb since the badger cull. He thinks it’s moving badgers onto other holdings. We’ve seen quite a few muntjac deer about recently. I’ve a feeling it’s them more so than the badgers. They seem to travel about a fair bit and get around our farm yard, whereas the badgers seem to keep away. Thanks again

Sorry to hear about this and it sounds a disaster!

Slightly off topic but I’ve had slaughterhouse phone before saying my lambs were dirty etc. I take timed photos when their penned inside a few hours pre loading to empty out now and the lorry pre loading to show sawdust etc also timed photo so they can’t dispute I didn’t have them in with plenty of time to empty the stomach contents.

edit: the lambs they said were dirty were dirty but from lambs above them loaded straight off the field from someone else

 

[Bald n Grumpy]

Thanks for all your replies. We accept we have TB although it was a shock. We’ve been clear for years despite having a lot of deer about as we’re by a forest.
The compensation had been agreed and all beasts accounted for. It would never enter our head to send a steer as it would be picked up straight away. Plus we wouldn’t have registered a steer as a bull as you have to pay to register each one and it would only be going for meat. So all of the males on the farm are entire. This bull was over 12 months old and was shaping up well. In fact the best two out of the bunch are now gone with tb. In the photo of the bull that we have he looks heavier set than a steer would be.
It’s enough of a mess, but now we need to prove one was a bull!
I’m grateful for the suggestions about cctv in the abattoir and the deadweight etc as I’ll query all this. I felt I ought to ring the abattoir to ask what’s gone on? The only thought is that they’ve got someone else’s steer and maybe chopped the tags out of the ears and got them mixed up? I’d have thought that it would be strictly regulated like how we are with movements and traceability. So if say 5 steers went in from one holding and 3 bulls from another it would be simple to work out. But if someone else has sent a steer as a bull and it was next in line to our bull, then maybe there’s the problem.
I can’t see any financial advantage for the abattoir, whether it’s a bull or a steer. If it was us trying to fiddle a steer through, I wouldn’t be kicking up a fuss about it now, but I felt it worth letting others know that it’s best to take photos as they’re going on the lorry as I wish we had done!
I’ll speak with the vet who did the test. They knew they were all bulls as we had separated them from the heifers and if we’d needed any castrating since registering them as pedigree, the vet would have done it. He’s known them from birth so that may help us out.
We’re located in Shropshire and the compensation difference between a bull and a steer is a few thousand pounds.
The lady had agreed the compensation, but then rang after they were slaughtered to say one was found to be a steer. It just doesn’t make sense.
Thanks again for the help. We’ll keep battling on!

Don't query anything, just ask them what's gone wrong with their systems.
If you "query" things that suggests you have doubt and you don't, somebody else has messed up not you
Good luck

 

[BAF]

She’s just rang and has said if the vet can write us a letter it will help. The vet put green reactor tags in which I believe are dna tags? But I’d guess it depends on what’s happened to the carcass since? It could just be a clerical error at the slaughterhouse but it’s causing us some stress! The lady has been sympathetic so hopefully it will get sorted. We won’t let one leave the place if we react again until it’s photographed and a form is signed by the lorry driver acknowledging what they are.
The driver told us that he’s noticed more cases of tb since the badger cull. He thinks it’s moving badgers onto other holdings. We’ve seen quite a few muntjac deer about recently. I’ve a feeling it’s them more so than the badgers. They seem to travel about a fair bit and get around our farm yard, whereas the badgers seem to keep away. Thanks again

There can be a spike in tb in cull zones in year 2. Nature hates a void and rushes to fill it. So it can draw dirty badgers into empty territories.
Deer are a vector for Tb definitely but I'm yet to shoot an infected deer and my shooting is on farms with a long history of being under restrictions.
Unfortunately there's people at the top end making money and there's no incentive for them to eradicate it. If they wanted to then a policy of gassing all setts within a 3 mile radius of an infected farm would soon put pays to it. The whole cull is a jobs for the boys setup too! I'm a big supporter of the cull but it could definitely be done better and with less cost to the farmer if some common sense was applied to the whole scheme.

 

[Ludan]

Sorry to hear about this and it sounds a disaster!

Slightly off topic but I’ve had slaughterhouse phone before saying my lambs were dirty etc. I take timed photos when their penned inside a few hours pre loading to empty out now and the lorry pre loading to show sawdust etc also timed photo so they can’t dispute I didn’t have them in with plenty of time to empty the stomach contents.

Well my wife took photos of ours the day before and sent them to the slaughter house to check they were clean enough. Sadly the bull in question had his leg in front of his tackle so we can’t go by that. Our vet is not happy about the situation as his concerns are what else is going on there when they’re supposed to be running a tight ship when it comes to TB reactors.
We are completely green to the process but feel that we’re being shafted somewhat by the abattoir. We’ve spoken again to the lady we’re dealing with at regarding this issue and asked her to check the abattoir cctv. Hopefully they might see the beasts hanging with their tackle on show, as my worry is that dna tags will prove our beast was there without a doubt, but it won’t prove that the beast was entire. If say, a steer was on the line next to this bull and the tags were cut out and chucked on the side, then the mixup could have started there. I doubt they keep the testicles there this long to be dna tested. Once the carcass has been dressed it will look like a steer sadly.