IB Flail Mower Blowing Grey Smoke and Tensioner Belt Snapped

[Pheasant Surprise]

Foot tall grass at 4mph... That's faster than I walk to the pub... You should be going at the speed at which one returns from the pub... Crawling.

Doesn’t seem to be having too much trouble in their promo videos. Still reckon the OPs hasn’t been setup correctly or has some inherent defects in the engine and/or belt drive/clutch.

Edit. This video is with a 12hp GX390 Honda, OPs has a 14hp Briggs and Scrap’em donk. Power/speed at 4mph should be shitting it in. Engine should be pulled right down and stall well before you burn belts/clutch. Simply crap non existent PDI/setup and/or plain faulty!

 

[chapmanmachinery]

Sadly I suspect you're asking too much from the machine, these Chinese made units are cheap and serve a purpose but have limitations which you have to be aware of to operate successfully.

Aside from the fact that the engine is way too underpowered for all but the lightest topping jobs, you'll find is that they come with an off-the-shelf clutch unit which is *just* about man enough for the job on a good day in ideal conditions. Engagement speed will be around 1800-2000rpm so slip with that engine under load can begin up around 2600rpm.

So although the no-load speed on that engine will be around 3600-3700rpm, working it hard will bring the revs down to the point where the clutch can start slipping without an necessarily audible change in engine tone. The clutch slipping rapidly heats the housing up, and with the inside belt being closer to the clutch element it overheats first. It will always be the inside belt burning out first in this instance as the rubber denatures at around 80 deg c, which is very easily reached if the clutch starts slipping. This is supported by the carbon fragments you describe, these are belt fragments, ie. denatured rubber.

Furthermore the image you shared has the idler pulley being a backside idler (ie. running on the outside of the belt), this is poor practice and adds to the heat load into the belts, exacerbating the heat problem.

We fit a 21hp V twin engine to supply enough power for this application, and use a clutch unit which is bespoke for us and manufactured by Amsbeck in Germany. We use a number of features to overcome issues inherent with this type of machine and drive system, for example we bring cooling air in from the engine to both blow debris out of the belt housing and to cool the drive system. All of these might seem like minor points but make a big difference to performance and reliability of the unit. Naturally this comes at a cost and as a manufacturer we're obviously at the other end of the scale in terms of price and quality, but I'm hoping these comments will help you make an informed decision on the next steps!

 

[davieh3350]

Doesn’t seem to be having too much trouble in their promo videos. Still reckon the OPs hasn’t been setup correctly or has some inherent defects in the engine and/or belt drive/clutch.

Edit. This video is with a 12hp GX390 Honda, OPs has a 14hp Briggs and Scrap’em donk. Power/speed at 4mph should be shitting it in. Engine should be pulled right down and stall well before you burn belts/clutch. Simply crap non existent PDI/setup and/or plain faulty!

He's leaving most of it standing!
Besides Ayrshire never has dry brittle grass like that.

 

[Exfarmer]

Sadly I suspect you're asking too much from the machine, these Chinese made units are cheap and serve a purpose but have limitations which you have to be aware of to operate successfully.

Aside from the fact that the engine is way too underpowered for all but the lightest topping jobs, you'll find is that they come with an off-the-shelf clutch unit which is *just* about man enough for the job on a good day in ideal conditions. Engagement speed will be around 1800-2000rpm so slip with that engine under load can begin up around 2600rpm.

So although the no-load speed on that engine will be around 3600-3700rpm, working it hard will bring the revs down to the point where the clutch can start slipping without an necessarily audible change in engine tone. The clutch slipping rapidly heats the housing up, and with the inside belt being closer to the clutch element it overheats first. It will always be the inside belt burning out first in this instance as the rubber denatures at around 80 deg c, which is very easily reached if the clutch starts slipping. This is supported by the carbon fragments you describe, these are belt fragments, ie. denatured rubber.

Furthermore the image you shared has the idler pulley being a backside idler (ie. running on the outside of the belt), this is poor practice and adds to the heat load into the belts, exacerbating the heat problem.

We fit a 21hp V twin engine to supply enough power for this application, and use a clutch unit which is bespoke for us and manufactured by Amsbeck in Germany. We use a number of features to overcome issues inherent with this type of machine and drive system, for example we bring cooling air in from the engine to both blow debris out of the belt housing and to cool the drive system. All of these might seem like minor points but make a big difference to performance and reliability of the unit. Naturally this comes at a cost and as a manufacturer we're obviously at the other end of the scale in terms of price and quality, but I'm hoping these comments will help you make an informed decision on the next steps!

I am extremely surprised at that statement!!!
That idler is on the normal place, assuming the drive is anti clockwise. It is on the non driving side pushing the belt further into the pulleys.
I would be happy to bet £100 the pulleys are not aligned

 

[chapmanmachinery]

I am extremely surprised at that statement!!!
That idler is on the normal place, assuming the drive is anti clockwise. It is on the non driving side pushing the belt further into the pulleys.
I would be happy to bet £100 the pulleys are not aligned

Yes correct side of the drive, is. Slack side but backside idlers (so running on flat outside of belt) increase induced heat on close centred pulleys like that. Inside idlers where the idler is a third pulley are better on higher speed drives where heat is an issue.

You're probably right on the alignment being out but doubt that's the root cause of failure!

 

[Colt12]

Sadly I suspect you're asking too much from the machine, these Chinese made units are cheap and serve a purpose but have limitations which you have to be aware of to operate successfully.

Aside from the fact that the engine is way too underpowered for all but the lightest topping jobs, you'll find is that they come with an off-the-shelf clutch unit which is *just* about man enough for the job on a good day in ideal conditions. Engagement speed will be around 1800-2000rpm so slip with that engine under load can begin up around 2600rpm.

So although the no-load speed on that engine will be around 3600-3700rpm, working it hard will bring the revs down to the point where the clutch can start slipping without an necessarily audible change in engine tone. The clutch slipping rapidly heats the housing up, and with the inside belt being closer to the clutch element it overheats first. It will always be the inside belt burning out first in this instance as the rubber denatures at around 80 deg c, which is very easily reached if the clutch starts slipping. This is supported by the carbon fragments you describe, these are belt fragments, ie. denatured rubber.

Furthermore the image you shared has the idler pulley being a backside idler (ie. running on the outside of the belt), this is poor practice and adds to the heat load into the belts, exacerbating the heat problem.

We fit a 21hp V twin engine to supply enough power for this application, and use a clutch unit which is bespoke for us and manufactured by Amsbeck in Germany. We use a number of features to overcome issues inherent with this type of machine and drive system, for example we bring cooling air in from the engine to both blow debris out of the belt housing and to cool the drive system. All of these might seem like minor points but make a big difference to performance and reliability of the unit. Naturally this comes at a cost and as a manufacturer we're obviously at the other end of the scale in terms of price and quality, but I'm hoping these comments will help you make an informed decision on the next steps!

----

Thanks for all your comments folks. The machine is built in Estonia by the company Iron Baltic themselves from what I can gather. The carbon fragments were found inside the machine after we cut the first approx 5m of grass. Basically we saw grey smoke at the very onset. I had ran the machine less than 2 minutes when all the grey smoke appeared. This is when we whipped the belt cover off and saw all those carbon-like fragments. I wonder if it was shipped defective in that case? ... Thanks again.

 

[Colt12]

I think debit cards won’t help protect you, worth a call though. Incidentally I was wrong because business credit cards won’t protect you either I don’t think hence I use personal credit cards for items/traders that could be trouble.

Good luck in your efforts.

---

Thanks. Given the option, and reading the comments this morning, I reckon I should seek a full refund (as opposed to a replacement Iron Baltic flail mower) and buy local where I can get the local support .... Thanks again for everyone's fantastic advice.

 

[8100]

Does the rotor turn easy without the belts on ?

 

[Colt12]

What fuel are you using?

--

Hi Davie,

Using unleaded fuel as specified by the retailer, quadbikeparts.co.uk who sold us the machine. Thanks.

 

[Dave W]

View attachment 787672


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Thanks for all your comments folks. The machine is built in Estonia by the company Iron Baltic themselves from what I can gather. The carbon fragments were found inside the machine after we cut the first approx 5m of grass. Basically we saw grey smoke at the very onset. I had ran the machine less than 2 minutes when all the grey smoke appeared. This is when we whipped the belt cover off and saw all those carbon-like fragments. I wonder if it was shipped defective in that case? ... Thanks again.

I don't think the machine is defective.
You're maybe asking too much of a cheap machine.
You'd struggle to cut a foot of grass with a compact tractor and 4ft flail at 4mph let alone a single cyl Briggs.

 

[Colt12]

Does the rotor turn easy without the belts on ?

---
Hi,

Sorry, we have not so far removed the belts ourselves and mostly due to fear of invalidating the warranty ... I don't suppose it would matter now, but as the tensioner bolt is seized anyway, we would have some job to remove those belts.

When the retailer, quadbikeparts.co.uk asked me to replace the clutch myself, the tensioner bolt got stuck. We were unable to remove that bolt from there (which would have next allowed us to remove the belts and the clutch).

I was put in touch (by Iron Baltic) with ATV Services, (of Hollybush, Ayr, Ayrshire) who supposedly repaired the machine. The bolt was seemingly stuck for them too, so according to Iron Baltic, they gave ATV Services a 'workaround' to remove the belts and clutch 'without' removing the tensioner bolt. I asked Iron Baltic and ATV Services to advise me the details of the workaround. Iron Baltic conveniently did not reply, and ATV Services point-blank refused to tell me anything about how they ''supposedly' fixed it. As per my previous comments, ATV Services returned the machine to me with no paperwork, no old clutch part, and the seized bolt was still present in the machine. What a ridiculous state of affairs ... Thanks.

 

[Dave W]

---
Hi,

Sorry, we have not so far removed the belts ourselves and mostly due to fear of invalidating the warranty ... I don't suppose it would matter now, but as the tensioner bolt is seized anyway, we would have some job to remove those belts.

When the retailer, quadbikeparts.co.uk asked me to replace the clutch myself, the tensioner bolt got stuck. We were unable to remove that bolt from there (which would have next allowed us to remove the belts and the clutch).

I was put in touch (by Iron Baltic) with ATV Services, (of Hollybush, Ayr, Ayrshire) who supposedly repaired the machine. The bolt was seemingly stuck for them too, so according to Iron Baltic, they gave ATV Services a 'workaround' to remove the belts and clutch 'without' removing the tensioner bolt. I asked Iron Baltic and ATV Services to advise me the details of the workaround. Iron Baltic conveniently did not reply, and ATV Services point-blank refused to tell me anything about how they ''supposedly' fixed it. As per my previous comments, ATV Services returned the machine to me with no paperwork, no old clutch part, and the seized bolt was still present in the machine. What a ridiculous state of affairs ... Thanks.

Sorry but you've frankly been fed a total load of bull shite.
They've chucked 2 new belts on and sent it back.

 

[Dave W]

When you refer to the tensioner bolt being seized how do you mean?
I can see a length of threaded rod Thst winds the tensioner pulley up. There's presumably some sort of locking bolt to hold it when tensioned. Non of this will be seized in the traditional sense.
Some more pictures in and around the tensioner will help

 

[davieh3350]

---

Thanks. Given the option, and reading the comments this morning, I reckon I should seek a full refund (as opposed to a replacement Iron Baltic flail mower) and buy local where I can get the local support .... Thanks again for everyone's fantastic advice.

Before you go asking for a refund and claiming it's the machine that's faulty make sure you aren't the problem! (That's not being nasty and looking for a fight)
Do you have much experience with mechanical things?
You may be best to get a mechanic to look at it, even a regular car garage would be able to see what is wrong.

 

[Colt12]

Hi,

Well, I didn't snap the belt myself 30 mins or so after the unit being returned to me, and to know that the flail punted out grey smoke within 5 metres of using it the first time with carbon flakes in the belt cover, then I definitely didn't do anything wrong myself. Thanks for looking at both sides there but definitely not me at fault.

 

[Colt12]

Sorry but you've frankly been fed a total load of bull shite.
They've chucked 2 new belts on and sent it back.

---

Hi there,

I don't think they changed anything at all to tell you the truth. When I asked the guy from ATV Services what he did to fix it, his astonishing reply was, ''It's not up to us to fix it - speak with Iron Baltic." It really begs the question why ATV Services took the flail mower away in the first place? Iron Baltic are under the impression that ATV Services did replace the clutch, but I seriously have my doubts. The customer service from ATV Services was quite frankly 'rude' on more than one count and from more than one person... Thanks.

 

[milkloss]

Hi,

Well, I didn't snap the belt myself 30 mins or so after the unit being returned to me, and to know that the flail punted out grey smoke within 5 metres of using it the first time with carbon flakes in the belt cover, then I definitely didn't do anything wrong myself. Thanks for looking at both sides there but definitely not me at fault.

As a dealer If I sold you a car and you rode the clutch in second gear in slow moving traffic and burnt out the clutch then I wouldn’t be too keen on replacing the clutch free of charge. I’m not accusing you of being ignorant or impractical but just be aware there may be a accusations of abusing the machine from the manufacturer.

 

[Colt12]

I don't think the machine is defective.
You're maybe asking too much of a cheap machine.
You'd struggle to cut a foot of grass with a compact tractor and 4ft flail at 4mph let alone a single cyl Briggs.

---

Hi,

It's not a compact tractor and it's not a 4ft flail. It's a Honda quad bike and a 6ft flail, but recommendations for the machine are to ride a max of 6.2mph. I rode at 4mph on average - never above that. Gave my field specs to Quadbikeparts before purchasing the machine and they said it would do the job, otherwise I would never have purchased it. Check out Iron Baltic's video's. Someone else posted one on this forum to demonstrate the machine cutting grass at what appears to be 3-foot tall plus. My own grass is about 30cm tall so not a hardship for a machine of that capacity with 28 hammers in a mainly level field. Thanks.

 

[Wombat]

I think debit cards won’t help protect you, worth a call though. Incidentally I was wrong because business credit cards won’t protect you either I don’t think hence I use personal credit cards for items/traders that could be trouble.

Good luck in your efforts.

If you use your private credit card for a business transaction ie the invoice has a trading name on it that won’t help either. Been there for that t shirt

 

[Colt12]

As a dealer If I sold you a car and you rode the clutch in second gear in slow moving traffic and burnt out the clutch then I wouldn’t be too keen on replacing the clutch free of charge. I’m not accusing you of being ignorant or impractical but just be aware there may be a accusations of abusing the machine from the manufacturer.

Highly unlikely of me / implausible to abuse the machine on the first 5 metres when the smoke began. i.e. I didn't even get an opportunity to see the machine in action. 5 metres in under 2 minutes is barely anything.