Shallow cultivations in No-Till? Yes or no?

[EddAke]

Moving into no till and have bought a Weaving GD but had very mixed results so far with OSR, grass seeds and cover crops. Farming light, free draining stoney Cotswold brash and have been min-till with some ploughing. Had a demo of the GD last year and it was a dream!

I know that the longer you leave the soil undisturbed the better the soil becomes and the more successful for no til establishment - but does that exclude any cultivations, say a light discing to create some tilth for grass seeds or OSR? Or would that just set us back to square one? Have we jumped in at the deep end expecting this to work when some of the fields were ploughed only 6months ago - would it be better to move into no till gradually i.e. min til wheat, min til cover crop, no til s.barley...? Or start after a 2 year ley?

I have pushed to change this in our business and other partners are stating to lose patience!

 

[Old John]

I would say it’s fine to use a very shallow cultivation if it helps to do a better job. Particularly early in the changeover to no till.
A little loose soil is very useful to make sure seed is covered better and to level the land.
Do what you need to to make it work in the early years. Late the soil will be more friable and a lot easier to work with.

 

[Brisel]

I would recommend that you use a spade more frequently. Do what you need to in order to improve soil structure. That may include deep cultivation with a low disturbance subsoiler if necessary. Whilst going full no till sooner gets you to your goal sooner, you risk some of the problems all at once too. I'd move into it gradually - after a 2 year ley would be a good starting point. After a late harvested cereal would not.

I still have a light set of discs and don't regret that at all. drilling straight into clay after a wet spell is impossible without opening the surface to weathering and drying.

I can recommend the services of @Warnesworth to help you through the conversion process.

 

[yellow belly]

If slugs are a problem on your land be careful using the gd when it is only just dry enough and you are prevented from rolling if land has been cultivated
Once you have a few years notill slugs become less of a problem
Imho many farms give up on notill before they see the soil improvement because crops never look as good as cultivated crops look better with cultivation for 2 reason notill looks scruffy and plants take longer to appear viewed from the road and cultivation releases some nitrogen which make autumn crops look better ( in a wet year like this most of the released n is now in the sea and lost on intensively cultivated soils )

The bills are much lower with the notill system less tractor hours much longer replacement periods less tractors
Lower wage bills lower diesel less repair and servicing costs less insurance because of more diverse rotation much lower spray and fertiliser bills ect

 

[EddAke]

Thank you. The trouble is I’ve lost half my OSR (tbh it didn’t really ever come up!), one field of grass seeds isn’t going to be enough to make a crop and one field of rye/vetch is only just there. It makes you nervous going into wheat harvest!
Slugs are not normally a problem here but with the big OSR volunteers and wet weather we have already put on some ferric phosphate pellets and will put more down the drill. Our land is free draining and should come dry enough to roll after 2/3 dry days. When we demoed the drill last year I was advised not to bother rolling - we did half and it made no difference. We rely on the press wheels but perhaps we need to roll everything - if dry enough - for slugs as well as seed soil contact? Thanks again!

 

[Brisel]

I had a demo of a GD this spring & I slightly wished I'd rolled it afterwards, especially on the slopes where the finish was rougher as the drill crabbed a little bit. It helps pre em herbicides as well as making slug life harder.

 

[kiwi]

Thank you. The trouble is I’ve lost half my OSR (tbh it didn’t really ever come up!), one field of grass seeds isn’t going to be enough to make a crop and one field of rye/vetch is only just there. It makes you nervous going into wheat harvest!
Slugs are not normally a problem here but with the big OSR volunteers and wet weather we have already put on some ferric phosphate pellets and will put more down the drill. Our land is free draining and should come dry enough to roll after 2/3 dry days. When we demoed the drill last year I was advised not to bother rolling - we did half and it made no difference. We rely on the press wheels but perhaps we need to roll everything - if dry enough - for slugs as well as seed soil contact? Thanks again!

Eddake
I have been on learning curve with weaving GD this season too and even though I had been using Dale drill since 2003, so my soils are quite good , I have had trouble getting depth as consistent with the weaving. I think I may be sowing to deep but when I go shallower by one hole, it seems to shallow. I have just drilled radish for seed and ended up using the Daledrill as I am not yet confident enough with the GD. We graze lambs on covercrops and because they make the soil harder near the surface , when the weaving penetrates through that, the soil comes up as a block and then pushes down as a block. This makes it harder for the new seedling to push up and so I can see if you don't have a drill like the dale you may need to lightly cultivate the surface.
I also find it hard not to push the slot closed to hard with the gauge wheels but maybe I have been drilling when slightly to wet. Be good to hear experienced GD drillers on how they set up for different conditions!,

 

[ih1455xl]

Eddake
I have been on learning curve with weaving GD this season too and even though I had been using Dale drill since 2003, so my soils are quite good , I have had trouble getting depth as consistent with the weaving. I think I may be sowing to deep but when I go shallower by one hole, it seems to shallow. I have just drilled radish for seed and ended up using the Daledrill as I am not yet confident enough with the GD. We graze lambs on covercrops and because they make the soil harder near the surface , when the weaving penetrates through that, the soil comes up as a block and then pushes down as a block. This makes it harder for the new seedling to push up and so I can see if you don't have a drill like the dale you may need to lightly cultivate the surface.
I also find it hard not to push the slot closed to hard with the gauge wheels but maybe I have been drilling when slightly to wet. Be good to hear experienced GD drillers on how they set up for different conditions!,

After winter grazing stubble turnips with ewes I run through the ground with a Michel bent leg soil loosener and the drill with the GD

 

[kiwi]

Thanks for the info. How often do you use the aerator and does it disturb the surface very much?

 

[ih1455xl]

Very Lowe disturbance when used correctly and only used when needed will see if I can find a video

 

[EddAke]

All makes sense but with the stone content of our soils I think putting anything through the ground is going to cause quite a bit of disturbance as it hits stones? However it does mean we don’t really suffer from compaction. I was thinking of moving the minimum of top soil (around 2”?) where it’s dry and hard on top to aid establishment. I’m hoping the wheat will be ok (if we ever get it in it definitely won’t be hard and dry!) but OSR/grass in dry weather? And I’m afraid I’ve lost my nerve when it comes to spring peas - too late to plant anything else if they fail so we will be working the ground before them. Maybe after 4/5 years of no till the soil will improve to try it!

 

[Deutzdx3]

All makes sense but with the stone content of our soils I think putting anything through the ground is going to cause quite a bit of disturbance as it hits stones? However it does mean we don’t really suffer from compaction. I was thinking of moving the minimum of top soil (around 2”?) where it’s dry and hard on top to aid establishment. I’m hoping the wheat will be ok (if we ever get it in it definitely won’t be hard and dry!) but OSR/grass in dry weather? And I’m afraid I’ve lost my nerve when it comes to spring peas - too late to plant anything else if they fail so we will be working the ground before them. Maybe after 4/5 years of no till the soil will improve to try it!

From what I listen to from zero till guys, you do what you have to to get to where you need to be, don’t be afraid to do what you think your land needs, speak to Clive, jake freestone, they would give you Unbiased pointers, no till isn’t just a different farming practice, it’s a change of mind set, you know your land better than any one, work the no till into your plan to gradually reduce cultivation to zero or to where you want to be. [emoji106]

 

[EddAke]

From what I listen to from zero till guys, you do what you have to to get to where you need to be, don’t be afraid to do what you think your land needs, speak to Clive, jake freestone, they would give you Unbiased pointers, no till isn’t just a different farming practice, it’s a change of mind set, you know your land better than any one, work the no till into your plan to gradually reduce cultivation to zero or to where you want to be. [emoji106]

When I bought the drill the plan was to start no till after the 2 year leys (already in the rotation) and move over gradually block by block - but with a new drill sat there in the shed and the old tine drill looking very sad for itself I jumped in at the deep end.

 

[jack6480]

Iv had the same sort of problems as you @EddAke, last years wheat was a treat.
this year osr was a fail, I drilled some mustard the same day as my rape and that looks really good but rape was non existent.
So far wheat drilled into thick osr volunteers is very good but my barley after wheat has not come very even because it’s been sat in water.
I think rotation is probably the key ?‍next year il sow my rape with a slug pelleter and stubble rake after. If it doesn’t grow then nothing lost.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Iv had the same sort of problems as you @EddAke, last years wheat was a treat.
this year osr was a fail, I drilled some mustard the same day as my rape and that looks really good but rape was non existent.
So far wheat drilled into thick osr volunteers is very good but my barley after wheat has not come very even because it’s been sat in water.
I think rotation is probably the key ?‍next year il sow my rape with a slug pelleter and stubble rake after. If it doesn’t grow then nothing lost.

Did your no till rape go in after wheat or barley?

 

[jack6480]

Did your no till rape go in after wheat or barley?

Some spring barley and some wheat, lots more slugs on the wheat stubble.

I did wonder if I had drilled it a tad to deep for this type of drill, because the flap of soil on top of the seed is harder than if it was drilled into cultivated ground. My rape germinated but not much made it to the surface. And what did was quickly mopped up by slugs.

 

[Clive]

There is nothing wrong with shallow cultivation and it is a good way to transition from full tillage to no-till IMO

You have to do whatever you have to do to make the system work IMO

 

[Brisel]

There is nothing wrong with shallow cultivation and it is a good way to transition from full tillage to no-till IMO

You have to do whatever you have to do to make the system work IMO

Can you remind us what you do or did to get yourself into ultra low disturbance not till and what you'd do if you found yourself needing to remove compaction or good seed to soil contact please?

 

[Clive]

Can you remind us what you do or did to get yourself into ultra low disturbance not till and what you'd do if you found yourself needing to remove compaction or good seed to soil contact please?

I have a carrier with front cross cutter - the front cross cutter allows it to be used very shallow so in transition I use it to create a light tilth but without disturbing roots so stubble is still attached and biological networks are undisturbed. This operation is useful if I need a bit of leveling r straw spread/slug kills/ weed chit as well as in yr1 transition and sometimes yr2 - it's like a heavier rake really used like this

If I get waterlogged spots or areas that you would typically blame on compaction like bad turning headlands etc and therefore cultivate deep I will instead drill a summer cover crop on them, planted after spring cropping is complete, nothing fixes soil better than roots IMO and within a year or 2 these areas get much smaller and eventually disappear


I do now own a subsoiler but to be honest I only bought it last year to help us move from 24m to a 36m tramline system and should have sold it when that was done ! I used it on some land this year after spreading some biosolid and compost and wish I hadn't as it created a lot of work getting back to something I wanted to drill, got away with it though and OSR looks good on that block but I have spoilt the structure we had going on there so I'm not very proud of myself on that one !!

It's only an old cheap machine but I think I will sell it

 

[EddAke]

Some spring barley and some wheat, lots more slugs on the wheat stubble.

I did wonder if I had drilled it a tad to deep for this type of drill, because the flap of soil on top of the seed is harder than if it was drilled into cultivated ground. My rape germinated but not much made it to the surface. And what did was quickly mopped up by slugs.

What is your soil type? I couldn’t decide if I was drilling too deep or too shallow! Ending up with some on top and then finding it quite deep, I stopped with the drill in the ground and thought it looked good but I’m not sure if that’s a very accurate sample. I think my biggest mistake was not rolling it - it seemed firm and it was very dry but we might have been lacking some soil/seed contact. On the plus side half of it is looking ok: