Sheep EBV’s

[gwi1890]

This has probably been covered before, And argued in plenty of other threads, But here we go again anyway, Im a big fan of the theory behind it but in terms of looking at animal I can make sense of it in my own flock the Big tup is in the top 50% of the breed with poor figures in terms of muscularity ?, and the other tup kept soley on figures and in the top 1% of the breed unfortunately if I used the tup in the top 1% would set my flock back years, I have used him commercially as well and not really been impressed, sheep are on grass Only here and get no special treatment
The crap Tups figures are shown

 

[Sandpit Farm]

They both look good to me. The big one seems to have a bloom dip so is this photo taken very soon after he was bought? If so, I’m not sure you can compare the two photos.

If you don’t like one of them, why did you buy him and why do you keep him?

Also, are you comparing singles with twins when weighing up which is best. How easily have they been born? What is the average growth rate of the progeny of each ram. The difficulty is - how can any of us comment without knowing why you weren’t impressed. I guess you have to be objective.

 

[MDL POWERUP]

Seen tups bought looking like the bottom tup then look half the size after tupping...

 

[M-J-G]

If your ram is bad, then he's bad, regardless of his figures, so I'd just sell him.

Don't drive off a cliff just because the sat nav tells you there's a road there, it's ok to have your own ideas.

I still work a lot on gut instinct, but many don't like that these days and people often mock the idea, which I find quite encouraging.

 

[gwi1890]

The big one I bought 3 years ago and was born a twin , and was bloomed for a local show, the other I reared my self I weighed shearlings recently and and the old tup still weighs 140kg, he has perfomed really well and I have plenty of his daughters about and they have performed well I don’t get c sections and we don’t pull many at lambing, out of him commercially between him and 2 of his sons I pulled 3 lambs out out 220 ewes. The other I bred out of another tup and kept him soley on figures I couldn’t put him in a pen at sale he wouldn’t get a bid

 

[M-J-G]

I'd question if there is a need for a sheep to be 140kg.
Lambs only need to get to 40 odd kilos.

 

[dogandstick]

The big one I bought 3 years ago and was born a twin , and was bloomed for a local show, the other I reared my self I weighed shearlings recently and and the old tup still weighs 140kg, he has perfomed really well and I have plenty of his daughters about and they have performed well I don’t get c sections and we don’t pull many at lambing, out of him commercially between him and 2 of his sons I pulled 3 lambs out out 220 ewes. The other I bred out of another tup and kept him soley on figures I couldn’t put him in a pen at sale he wouldn’t get a bid

What are their accuracy figures? Are they predicted from pedigree or progeny results? If predicted and with low accuracy values, maybe questionable pedigree. It had been known for breeders to mistakenly register animals to incorrect parentage.

 

[gwi1890]

Seen tups bought looking like the bottom tup then look half the size after tupping...

still going strong and honestly not lost much weight

If your ram is bad, then he's bad, regardless of his figures, so I'd just sell him.

Don't drive off a cliff just because the sat nav tells you there's a road there, it's ok to have your own ideas.

I still work a lot on gut instinct, but many don't like that these days and people often mock the idea, which I find quite encouraging.

like I said I don't use him on the pedgiree's used him to sweep on a few commercial ewes, I'm just trying to make a point that the data is well crazy some people want to buy soley on figures but how the heck are you supposed say one is better than the other when its glaringly obv to eye,

 

[gwi1890]

What are their accuracy figures? Are they predicted from pedigree or progeny results? If predicted and with low accuracy values, maybe questionable pedigree. It had been known for breeders to mistakenly register animals to incorrect parentage.

been under the scanner and all, not sure about the one I bought, when looking for a tup I have never been able to find a high index tup that suits

 

[M-J-G]

Is anyone daft enough to buy on figures alone? I'd have thought that even in these modern and trendy times that people still lean towards what their eye tells them to, even if it is in combination with things like figures or health status.

I speak to plenty of breeders who say they'd buy a particular animal but their figures are poor, meaning their progeny would have reduced figures and commercial buyers might be put off buying them.
So they are in some cases more worried about maintaining figures than they are about the animal with poorer figures actually having poorer performance.
But that's the days we are living in.

 

[gwi1890]

Is anyone daft enough to buy on figures alone? I'd have thought that even in these modern and trendy times that people still lean towards what their eye tells them to, even if it is in combination with things like figures or health status.

I speak to plenty of breeders who say they'd buy a particular animal but their figures are poor, meaning their progeny would have reduced figures and commercial buyers might be put off buying them.
So they are in some cases more worried about maintaining figures than they are about the animal with poorer figures actually having poorer performance.
But that's the days we are living in.

Its a problem the figures in theory should match the sheep but unfortunately they don’t

 

[gwi1890]

Is anyone daft enough to buy on figures alone? I'd have thought that even in these modern and trendy times that people still lean towards what their eye tells them to, even if it is in combination with things like figures or health status.

I speak to plenty of breeders who say they'd buy a particular animal but their figures are poor, meaning their progeny would have reduced figures and commercial buyers might be put off buying them.
So they are in some cases more worried about maintaining figures than they are about the animal with poorer figures actually having poorer performance.
But that's the days we are living in.

Its a problem the figures in theory should match the sheep but unfortunately they don’t

 

[Woolless]

Do you performance record your own sheep? And if so have you properly compared the two tups? You say that the 1% tup would set you back years? Is that because of lack of size/breed character? I saw a very high index Texel on the RamCompare trial and he looked very similar to your 1% sheep.

TBH, I would dismiss the big tup out of hand if I was buying, head too big/too big generally.

 

[Sandpit Farm]

Its a problem the figures in theory should match the sheep but unfortunately they don’t

Maybe not in this sample size of two. It’s so difficult to make judgements like this. I guess my point is, are you judging the tups at what their lambs look like? If so, it just isn’t good enough. You have to measure and properly compare. were they single sire mated? If so and the top 1% animal is crap, you should cull him but make sure some of his progeny are recorded so his ranking becomes correct.

I was involved in a Swaledale trial a few years ago and the top 10% index tup looked no different to the below average tup in the trial. However the lambs from the top 10 tup were 5% heavier at 8 weeks old. That was after one round of recording. Both rams looked the same really.

 

[gwi1890]

Do you performance record your own sheep? And if so have you properly compared the two tups? You say that the 1% tup would set you back years? Is that because of lack of size/breed character? I saw a very high index Texel on the RamCompare trial and he looked very similar to your 1% sheep.

TBH, I would dismiss the big tup out of hand if I was buying, head too big/too big generally.

yes I do record the texel, my customers buy my tups because the have to eye a decent carcase the data says otherwise lol, I know for a fact that i wouldnt get a bid for the top 1% tup in a sale , I try to produce what my customers come back for at the end of the day which is not a big head but just a decent bodied ram. here is the offspring of the bigger ram no drastics heads

 

[dogandstick]

yes I do record the texel, my customers buy my tups because the have to eye a decent carcase the data says otherwise lol, I know for a fact that i wouldnt get a bid for the top 1% tup in a sale , I try to produce what my customers come back for at the end of the day which is not a big head but just a decent bodied ram. here is the offspring of the bigger ram no drastics heads

Cracking looking bunch to be fair.

 

[neilo]

like I said I don't use him on the pedgiree's used him to sweep on a few commercial ewes, I'm just trying to make a point that the data is well crazy some people want to buy soley on figures but how the heck are you supposed say one is better than the other when its glaringly obv to eye,

Are you judging them on what they look like as mature rams, or how their lambs perform to slaughter weight (which is the only bit that performance recording attempts to quantify)?

I can understand why you might want a ram to look big and strong as an aged ram, but that really is an irrelevance to the commercial production of lamb. I have known of plenty of bloodlines that have been sh*ts of lambs at slaughter weight, and who wouldn't grade without a lot of hard feed, but who have made clonking good shearlings and sold in the thousands. I also know plenty of bloodlines that produce lambs that are good and ready at slaughter weight, off cheap forage only, but who never get above 120kg themselves. Which makes for the better commercial ram?

Judging adult rams is totally unconnected to what their lambs do ime, unless your primary aim is to produce more adult rams the same (which is unfortunately what the shearling trade is all about at ram sales of course). 'A real Shearling maker'

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

I am not sure whether the figures are as accurate for terminal sires but I would certainly not buy a maternal ram without some figures. I always look at the ram first and the figures second though.

We have increased lambing % and weights sold by a very significant amount since using the figures for our flocks. However one has to be careful on interpreting what some of them actually mean and don't go to extremes.
A fault of the old traditional Romney was that it would get very fat before it had reached a commercial weight. So we tended to go for a high weaning weight with a low fat score with large eye muscle.
We fairly quickly noticed that while finished weights went up by over 10% some of these just kept growing and wouldn't finish. By going back to higher fat cover but keeping the eye muscle has been a great improvement.

 

[gwi1890]

Are you judging them on what they look like as mature rams, or how their lambs perform to slaughter weight (which is the only bit that performance recording attempts to quantify)?

I can understand why you might want a ram to look big and strong as an aged ram, but that really is an irrelevance to the commercial production of lamb. I have known of plenty of bloodlines that have been sh*ts of lambs at slaughter weight, and who wouldn't grade without a lot of hard feed, but who have made clonking good shearlings and sold in the thousands. I also know plenty of bloodlines that produce lambs that are good and ready at slaughter weight, off cheap forage only, but who never get above 120kg themselves. Which makes for the better commercial ram?

Judging adult rams is totally unconnected to what their lambs do ime, unless your primary aim is to produce more adult rams the same (which is unfortunately what the shearling trade is all about at ram sales of course). 'A real Shearling maker'

A bit of both to be honest, they have to perform to slaughter weight yes anything that is not 40kg + end of june is sold fat ealry march born lambs, The high index tup grew like stink 35kg at 8 weeks and tunred into a horrid looking shearling, I have used him on lleyn x welsh ewes and he has done ok, other tups I use From my own breeding throw fuller looking lambs with better asses none the less it doesn’t matter to me in terms of selling my own fat lambs, but for selling shearlings I simply cant market that kind of tup as nobody wants them. I have produce what my customers want

 

[Woolless]

A bit of both to be honest, they have to perform to slaughter weight yes anything that is not 40kg + end of june is sold fat ealry march born lambs, The high index tup grew like stink 35kg at 8 weeks and tunred into a horrid looking shearling, I have used him on lleyn x welsh ewes and he has done ok, other tups I use From my own breeding throw fuller looking lambs with better asses none the less it doesn’t matter to me in terms of selling my own fat lambs, but for selling shearlings I simply cant market that kind of tup as nobody wants them. I have produce what my customers want

35kg at eight weeks is good going, assuming not pushed. Finished by 12 weeks, that'll do me.