time for ukraine to surrender?

[wanton dwarf]

Wow. Swap "Russian" for "Jewish" or "black" and then see how it sounds. Pretty disgusting, right?

I will not blame the average Russian for the insanity of their leader.

Yep.

All they are setting up is hatred for the future. This extended war will just create more and more hate.

 

[Henarar]

Wow. Swap "Russian" for "Jewish" or "black" and then see how it sounds. Pretty disgusting, right?

I will not blame the average Russian for the insanity of their leader.

Fantastic post

 

[yellowbelly]

I will not blame the average Russian for the insanity of their leader.

If he's their leader then they want to be back in their country with him and get him overthrown - not hiding in ours and hiding 'dirty' Russian money over here.

 

[Henarar]

If he's their leader then they want to be back in their country with him and get him overthrown - not hiding in ours and hiding 'dirty' Russian money over here.

Is that the average Russian?

 

[Goweresque]

as title.......they're not going to win despite their gallant efforts......civilians starting to get killed as russian army resorts to tactics used in chechyna and syria.....the only way they could win is with western military support risking escalation....for their and greater good should they give up and hope sanctions force russia back

I agree. Continuing fighting will only destroy more of the country's infrastructure and kill more civilians. Far better to just stop. The point is that the Russians have no way out of this now, even if they 'win'. They can't occupy the Ukraine forever, they'd need hundreds of thousands, maybe a million men to occupy the country and administer it, permanently. They can't afford that, if they even had that manpower. They hoped for a speedy victory and to install a puppet government - that is not going to happen now, if it ever could have. Any puppet government would be overthrown in days, they'd have no armed forces of their own to defend themselves against their own population. Once the Russians left it would be like Afghanistan when the US left - the Taliban walked into Kabul because no-one wanted to fight for the US backed regime.

So just let the Russians have the Ukraine, for now. They won't know what to do with it. Their economy will soon be tanking with all the sanctions, they will be forced by economic necessity to withdraw their forces. All continuing to defend every town and city is doing is killing more people and destroying more of the country. Let the Russians occupy it, and wait.

The Chinese general Sun Tzu wrote a treatise on fighting and strategy in the 6th century BC, which is widely regarded as one of the best manuals on military strategy, and one of his quotes is “He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.” This situation in the Ukraine may be one of those where not fighting is the way to win.

Or if your taste is more Hollywood, the tagline of the 1980s thriller Wargames (the subject of which rather relevantly is thermonuclear war) is 'The only winning move is not to play'.

 

[BrianV]

If he's their leader then they want to be back in their country with him and get him overthrown - not hiding in ours and hiding 'dirty' Russian money over here.

Really funny how it wasn’t funny money when it came here & they spent it, still I guess it will be so much better when they take it all back to Russia.

 

[yellowbelly]

Is that the average Russian?

No idea, I don't know any Russians.
The only people who are going to get rid of Putin are Russians.
It's going to take another Russian Revolution to overthrow him - they can't do that if they're here.

 

[Swarfmonkey]

If he's their leader then they want to be back in their country with him and get him overthrown - not hiding in ours and hiding 'dirty' Russian money over here.

Easy for you to say. You're not likely to end up having a real bad time in the basement of a building next to Lubyanka Square at the hands of the FSB.

 

[spin cycle]

They are going to win, meaning see the Russians leave their country and remain a sovereign democracy.

It will be a hard thing, but you overestimate Russian capacity and underestimate the cost of their war.

Nobody will doubt Putin's readiness to resort to the most horrible methods, yet there is no way a country such as Ukraine can be held against its will by the forces Russia has; still less when there are and shall remain virtually unlimited arms and funds available to Ukraine

Your defeatism is both unnecessary and quite revolting; it isn't a 'sober assessment', it isn't the 'lesser of two evils', have the courage to call it what it plainly is, a call on a people to allow themselves to be enslaved, again.

just to be clear....i'm not advocating their surrender or resistance ....just asking what the forum thinks from a practical point of view

 

[beardface]

Yep.

All they are setting up is hatred for the future. This extended war will just create more and more hate.

Just pray that hate crimes against Russians don't begin around the world. Otherwise it will be even harder to get rid of the pansy.

 

[its yourself]

Once again good to know who the quislings collaborators and child murder fans are on here. Never seen a Russian death squad they didn't like. Shameful.

 

[Werzle]

As the experts over the weekend pointed out , no country on earth can take over another country with 40million people who do not want you there. This "special operation" will become a living nightmare for russia.

 

[Muck Spreader]

Easy for you to say. You're not likely to end up having a real bad time in the basement of a building next to Lubyanka Square at the hands of the FSB.

Isn't that exactly what Ukrainians are trying to avoid by fighting?

 

[hoff135]

Surrender and have russian agents going round killing anyone they like, public executions, concentration camps etc. Ukrainian army will fight to the death, if they are captured alive the will probably be executed. They are going to make life living hell for the russians and have embarrassed them on the world stage

 

[Danllan]

Isn't that exactly what Ukrainians are trying to avoid by fighting?

Yes, but he is referring to Russians who act against the Dictator there. You two are arguing the same point...

 

[BrianV]

Surrender and have russian agents going round killing anyone they like, public executions, concentration camps etc. Ukrainian army will fight to the death, if they are captured alive the will probably be executed. They are going to make life living hell for the russians and have embarrassed them on the world stage

But hey how much better their life is now that they have the choice to choose their own future, why should they have been forced to stay independent & out of NATO when they could have this predictable future!
So many idealists in this world who don't have to face the consequences.

 

[Exfarmer]

Any intervention by NATO will increase Putins support. He will tell his people, “see I told you, this terrible group are fighting to stop us freeing our brothers in Ukraine’.
If Putin has a shoe in, he will increase his support and good dictator, PM or president knows there is nothing like winning an easy war, to gain public support.
as it is those Russian soldiers are texting home at this very moment, “Mum I am cold, I am hungry, it is nothing like they told us, they promised us a warm reception and crowds greeting us. They are killing my friends, and I do not know if I will come back”.
if they have a hard time there will be little enthusiam for what is certainly next on the list, the Baltic states

 

[neilo]

just to be clear....i'm not advocating their surrender or resistance ....just asking what the forum thinks from a practical point of view

As @yellowbelly posted above, that is a decision only the Ukrainian people should make. If they wish to fight for their sovereignty then they should be supported, financially and with supplies.

 

[BrianV]

As @yellowbelly posted above, that is a decision only the Ukrainian people should make. If they wish to fight for their sovereignty then they should be supported, financially and with supplies.

Nothing like pouring petrol on a fire for others to watch for the result.

 

[JohnGalway]

Any intervention by NATO will increase Putins support. He will tell his people, “see I told you, this terrible group are fighting to stop us freeing our brothers in Ukraine’.
If Putin has a shoe in, he will increase his support and good dictator, PM or president knows there is nothing like winning an easy war, to gain public support.
as it is those Russian soldiers are texting home at this very moment, “Mum I am cold, I am hungry, it is nothing like they told us, they promised us a warm reception and crowds greeting us. They are killing my friends, and I do not know if I will come back”.
if they have a hard time there will be little enthusiam for what is certainly next on the list, the Baltic states

Seeing some talk around the possibility of undersea cables being cut, russian ship Yantar has already left port, it's been involved in suspicious activity in the vicinity of cables previously. I wonder have NATO any red lines around these cables