Deductions

[Adeptandy]

There has to be a standard set for everything, yes, just missing it is a pain and can at times seem/feel harsh, but there has to be a cut off somewhere, at the end of the day none of us do it for the fun of it, its all a money making exercise for both grower and merchant/end user. Just some years theres not a lot of money our side of the job. We all need rules, boundaries and limitations.

 

[DRC]

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it's clear cut, and been set out like this for years. Every industry has a standard to produce to and 99% of farmers will produce to this standard, they invest heavily in expensive driers, moisture metres, venting systems and conditioning equipment. Claims are there to help you out, not rip you off. Can you imagine having 15.4% feed wheat in an industry that had a cut off of 15 and no fallbacks! Then you would know expense. Same as a sample of feed wheat at 71.5kg being cleaned because 72 was the cut off....now that would be ridiculous.

Your missing the point. The industry standard is set too low, as there's nothing wrong with feed wheat at 15.5% for animal feed. It certainly doesn't justify a claim as big as £2.50 on wheat worth £110 ton.
If it was over 16 %, I accept that it wouldn't store for long periods.
Never mind, you live and learn about which merchants fight your corner, and those that are in bed with certain mills!

 

[Grain Buyer]

think the problem you have there is a merchant can not afford to fall out with a mill or chain of mills! Where as a farmer threatening to take his business else where is easily replaced. Chances are you tell a merchant to stick it, but due to your location your wheat will still end up going to the same mills. Don't get me wrong, claims can sour a relationship but when farmers have already screwed the price down to a level where the merchant might be making £1/t, you can't expect them to take the claim on the chin, especially when you are out of spec.

 

[nick...]

Somthing else the nfu could have argued over
Nick...

 

[DRC]

think the problem you have there is a merchant can not afford to fall out with a mill or chain of mills! Where as a farmer threatening to take his business else where is easily replaced. Chances are you tell a merchant to stick it, but due to your location your wheat will still end up going to the same mills. Don't get me wrong, claims can sour a relationship but when farmers have already screwed the price down to a level where the merchant might be making £1/t, you can't expect them to take the claim on the chin, especially when you are out of spec.

Not saying the merchant should take the hit, but that they should tell certain mills that they're taking the pee. At 15.5 %, I've done them out of about 66p worth per ton, which won't affect them as it won't need to be dried at that.
Merchants I deal with aren't just grain merchants, but want me to buy seed and fertiliser from them, a bit of give and take wouldn't go amiss .

 

[Grain Buyer]

I'm guessing you have an assigned rep, who looks after your account. Back in the office is a bloke (or girl) who's job is to keep the customers (mill buyers) happy. They can not tell someone who spends possibly millions of pounds, that they are taking the pee. At the end of the day, the buyer wants to buy 15%, 72kg wheat, it's really simple, supply that, and no one will be claimed. If it's financially beneficial to supply outside of this spec, and suffer the claims, then go for it. As you and I have no business dealings, I hope you can see this as impartial advice, rather then flying the flag for a bit of farmer bashing.

 

[DRC]

I'm guessing you have an assigned rep, who looks after your account. Back in the office is a bloke (or girl) who's job is to keep the customers (mill buyers) happy. They can not tell someone who spends possibly millions of pounds, that they are taking the pee. At the end of the day, the buyer wants to buy 15%, 72kg wheat, it's really simple, supply that, and no one will be claimed. If it's financially beneficial to supply outside of this spec, and suffer the claims, then go for it. As you and I have no business dealings, I hope you can see this as impartial advice, rather then flying the flag for a bit of farmer bashing.

No different to the way supermarkets treat their suppliers then . I can see why the dairy farmers are so angry. It's a trying harvest and prices are on their arse, but the mills have all the power.
Ah well, the supply trade may well have to wait a while to get paid for the seed and fertiliser this year, as there's no money about.

 

[Grain Buyer]

Ah well, the supply trade may well have to wait a while to get paid for the seed and fertiliser this year, as there's no money about.

you see, that is changing the terms of a deal once concluded.

 

[Against_the_grain]

you see, that is changing the terms of a deal once concluded.

...and the mills would never do that would they......

 

[Grain Buyer]

ah, then you do have a case to kick up a royal stink. Independent tests, trading standards, hash letters to the boss. go for it, and my farmers would have my backing 100%.

 

[DRC]

you see, that is changing the terms of a deal once concluded.

Is it possible to set your own terms, ie, write to merchant saying I will endeavour to load wheat at 15, but in the event of it being 15.5, I will only accept £1 deduction.
Like wise, buying seed, as I sometimes open a bag to be greeted by stuff that looks a lot poorer sample than what's in my shed.

 

[homefarm]

My point/grievence relates to the whole accuracy of the sample and the machines testing it.

Just sent a malting barley sample away came back 1.64 n 15.2 moisture 68.3 bushel
Sample is from a bucket mixed from 6 trailer
loads
Have tested a sample from the bucket locally on tascc approved machines
1.60 n 14.8 moisture 68.8 bushel
n not tested 14.5 moisture 67.9 bushel.

If the sample had been a lorry they would have claimed.

I believe moisture and bushel is only accurate to 0.5% and N and probably protein can vary by 1.0 within the sample never mind the load.

Its not a surprise really rubbing out ears by hand at this time of year shows the variation within every ear.
Just like the lottery every Saturday the 6 numbers drawn will add up to a number.

3or4 over 40 and we get a claim.

 

[Farmer Dod]

Claims/ deductions are not nice but the most important thing is to realise what you've got and market it accordingly.

I remember when I worked in the trade and the milling wheat really took a hammering due to the poor harvest (1999 or 2000?). Many of the mills DID change their terms to reflect the poorer than average quality with much more tolerance however it took the shape of higher claims. Hagbergs, bushel weights and proteins all suffered and there were some pretty hefty claims against full spec contracts but it allowed some farmers to get a premium for wheat that in a normal year would have been downgraded to feed.

As someone who tries to grow malting barley I've seen it from both sides of the fence and a list of deductions against a load is annoying and frustrating but is still much cheaper than a rejection/ redirection to a feed home.

 

[glasshouse]

70kg wheat is indistinguishable from 72 kg in feed value, but it suffers claims.
i wouldnt mind the claims if the top line price left a profit!!!!

 

[Yorkshire lad]

Bushel weights and weighing are my gripes
Why is below 72 kg seen as sub standard but over 72 kg does not attract a premium
Why am i charged for weighing my wheat on the buyers weighbridge when both buyer and seller need to know the weight of the load .
Buyer wont accept my weigh ticket and demands seller pays full cost of weighing , why wont they split cost 50/50
A few farmers around here deliver wheat to local mill in tractor and trailers one told me he was paying nearly £1 ton in weighbridge fees .
Me thinks he needs a larger trailer or send it on a truck

 

[Grain Buyer]

there are premiums for +72kg wheat, depends what variety you grow, but if you are simply growing an out and out feeder, you can't grumble.

 

[Brisel]

Ok. So you've sold grain to a merchant. It is based on an AIC contract specification i.e. 72 kg/hl, 15% moisture, 2%admix etc. you agree to this contract and the deal is done. You load out grain out of contract specification and are therefore in breach of that contract. The contract terms have the scale back terms under the FOSFA26A spec. The merchant applies the penalty as per the terms of the contract.

Is it that simple?

https://www.agindustries.org.uk/legal/contracts/

 

[Against_the_grain]

Why am i charged for weighing my wheat on the buyers weighbridge when both buyer and seller need to know the weight of the load .
Buyer wont accept my weigh ticket and demands seller pays full cost of weighing , why wont they split cost 50/50

I have real gripe about this as well. Why should we pay for them to know the weight!? It may have been weighed in the truck at loading, and then over the farms weighbridge. Yes they need to know the weight but why are we paying for it! If you turn this the other way around and say that on delivery of fertiliser loads will be weighed and a weighbridge charge will be issued to the seller and any discrepencies in weight will be chargeable at £0.10/kg, what do you reckon the outcome will be?

 

[glasshouse]

Ok. So you've sold grain to a merchant. It is based on an AIC contract specification i.e. 72 kg/hl, 15% moisture, 2%admix etc. you agree to this contract and the deal is done. You load out grain out of contract specification and are therefore in breach of that contract. The contract terms have the scale back terms under the FOSFA26A spec. The merchant applies the penalty as per the terms of the contract.

Is it that simple?

https://www.agindustries.org.uk/legal/contracts/

that is not the arguement, its the level of penalties and whether they are fair, not the penalties per se.
regarding bushel weight, it has been raised before that sucker sampler machines suck more light grains than heavy, therefore distorting the specific weight to the merchants advantage..

 

[Brisel]

Fair enough on the suction probes, but the penalties are in the contract you signed up to. If you don't like them, mention it to the merchant next time you are selling & see if you can come to an agreement. See what his standard price was first

I have averaged out claims across a 203 t contract onto a boat where I knew the batch to be inconsistent rather than pay claims on each load. I had the discussion with the merchant first & he agreed to the averaging, as his firm was doing all the loading. It's just communication.