Draining with no gravel

[farmerm]

Heavy clay and the majority of the clay pipes which may be150 years or more generally work well and all without stone...

 

[Hjwise]

We’re on pretty heavy clay loam (subsoil is solid yellow clay). The farm was drained in the 70’s with no gravel, vast majority of the drains are still running well.

 

[Grass And Grain]

Non of our drains have stone on them, if they did they’d be blocked with ochre within a couple of years!
Probably 60% are laid in clay soils with just 8-10” of top soil on the pipe and they will pull water just fine. A lot of our tile drains went in before my grandads time (he’s 97) and they are still run fine now.
On heavy land I wouldn’t go more than 10 yards apart either, any land we’ve had at wider has always ended up with one in between eventually, our peat and opencast ground is drained every 5 yards!

What do you think the best drainage solution is in ochre?

We've got running sand with ochre in it.

 

[Hilly]

I’d love to know how you drain clay without stone , clay is water proof lol they use it to keep water in !

 

[Hjwise]

I’d love to know how you drain clay without stone , clay is water proof lol they use it to keep water in !

I’m no expert but I would say the water finds its way around the various stones and chalk lumps that are interspersed in the clay - along with the voids left by decayed OSR roots (which find their way in to the drains) as well as the summertime cracks which you can loose a leg in.

 

[Phil P]

What do you think the best drainage solution is in ochre?

We've got running sand with ochre in it.

Running sand is a pita! The lined pipe helps but it’s expensive and plenty of topsoil round the pipe also helps but regular jetting is about all that keeps pipes running.
We’ve just bought our own digger last year as it was costing that much getting contractors in to do maintenance. We have a lot of drains that will be over 150 years old and are needing a lot maintenance due to sand and ochre.
Now we spend most of the winter checking and maintaining our drainage systems ourselves. It’s just a case or rotating our spring cropping round the fields that need the work to give us time to sort any problems. But it’s more than paying for the digger, just need my own jetter now!

 

[Flat 10]

I find this backfill/no backfill thing very confusing. No one I’ve ever heard of locally would not use stone but big potential cost saving. @GeorgeK i like your idea but someone on here was putting in 2inch land rains with a mole plough. Most impressive. @Badshot

 

[Phil P]

I find this backfill/no backfill thing very confusing. No one I’ve ever heard of locally would not use stone but big potential cost saving. @GeorgeK i like your idea but someone on here was putting in 2inch land rains with a mole plough. Most impressive. @Badshot

2” drains are the work of the devil , especially when they’re horse shoes

 

[Kevtherev]

Turf is traditionally used in wales on top of drains as its porous.

 

[Jd Everytime]

Go the whole hog with 2 deep legs on the combine to open it up and drop straw in and roll back down, just add another 300HP!

May as well add a drill too and plant next years crop while yer combining! A true one pass!!

 

[AndrewM]

I find this backfill/no backfill thing very confusing. No one I’ve ever heard of locally would not use stone but big potential cost saving. @GeorgeK i like your idea but someone on here was putting in 2inch land rains with a mole plough. Most impressive. @Badshot

Yet the Americans never seem to use any, just Gps lay plastic pipe.

 

[Grass And Grain]

Running sand is a pita! The lined pipe helps but it’s expensive and plenty of topsoil round the pipe also helps but regular jetting is about all that keeps pipes running.
We’ve just bought our own digger last year as it was costing that much getting contractors in to do maintenance. We have a lot of drains that will be over 150 years old and are needing a lot maintenance due to sand and ochre.
Now we spend most of the winter checking and maintaining our drainage systems ourselves. It’s just a case or rotating our spring cropping round the fields that need the work to give us time to sort any problems. But it’s more than paying for the digger, just need my own jetter now!

We've used wrapped. All in ochre and sand, but slightly differently soil types. Some are still running great 9 years later. Some put in 11 years ago are slowing up. Can get at them all with jetter though, so think had better ring the contractor.

When running ditches are brown, and an algae like scum comes out of the drains.

One retired drainage man told me to keep drain ends under water, as the scum only grows if it can get oxygen. Don't know if that's true.

Ours were laid without stone, and no trouble with them drawing water. Local contractor uses filter wrapped plus stone on sand land. Would the stone help with ochre I'm wondering?

Pots would be better than filter wrapped plastic imho. Presume either can't get them or prohibitively expensive and need right shoot and labour intensive.

We've little fall either, so unwrapped pipe would probably silt up, even with regular jetting I think.

 

[Hjwise]

If money is no object then I would have thought gravel is the way to go.

Drainage contractors will always push for gravel as it adds significant value to each job. Plus pays for expensive machinery that would otherwise be left idle.

 

[Phil P]

We've used wrapped. All in ochre and sand, but slightly differently soil types. Some are still running great 9 years later. Some put in 11 years ago are slowing up. Can get at them all with jetter though, so think had better ring the contractor.

When running ditches are brown, and an algae like scum comes out of the drains.

One retired drainage man told me to keep drain ends under water, as the scum only grows if it can get oxygen. Don't know if that's true.

Ours were laid without stone, and no trouble with them drawing water. Local contractor uses filter wrapped plus stone on sand land. Would the stone help with ochre I'm wondering?

Pots would be better than filter wrapped plastic imho. Presume either can't get them or prohibitively expensive and need right shoot and labour intensive.

We've little fall either, so unwrapped pipe would probably silt up, even with regular jetting I think.

I believe stone on the drains makes ochre worse? I can’t remember what happens exactly but but it either reacts to and cause it to go hard or it pulls more. There is a reason to to put stone on in soils with ochre though.

I think a lot depends on how much water a drain pulls. Ones with a good flow all year don’t tend to give trouble but ones that tend to dry up quick don’t take long to silt/ocher up. Once the ochre drys out and sets it’s very hard to shift it! We have some drains with a lot of fall but they are shallow and soon dry out, they give endless trouble.

 

[Phil P]

We've used wrapped. All in ochre and sand, but slightly differently soil types. Some are still running great 9 years later. Some put in 11 years ago are slowing up. Can get at them all with jetter though, so think had better ring the contractor.

When running ditches are brown, and an algae like scum comes out of the drains.

One retired drainage man told me to keep drain ends under water, as the scum only grows if it can get oxygen. Don't know if that's true.

Ours were laid without stone, and no trouble with them drawing water. Local contractor uses filter wrapped plus stone on sand land. Would the stone help with ochre I'm wondering?

Pots would be better than filter wrapped plastic imho. Presume either can't get them or prohibitively expensive and need right shoot and labour intensive.

We've little fall either, so unwrapped pipe would probably silt up, even with regular jetting I think.

This is quite an interesting read, apparently wood chip used as backfill can dramatically reduce ochre. Every day’s a school day

https://fyi.extension.wisc.edu/drainage/files/2012/06/Iron-Ochre-Control-Methods1.pdf

 

[Steevo]

This is quite an interesting read, apparently wood chip used as backfill can dramatically reduce ochre. Every day’s a school day

https://fyi.extension.wisc.edu/drainage/files/2012/06/Iron-Ochre-Control-Methods1.pdf

Skip the drain jetter, a tree harvester and big wood chipper is what you need then!

 

[Badshot]

I find this backfill/no backfill thing very confusing. No one I’ve ever heard of locally would not use stone but big potential cost saving. @GeorgeK i like your idea but someone on here was putting in 2inch land rains with a mole plough. Most impressive. @Badshot

Yep.
Me.
Still running well, must be getting on for 10 years now.
Thinking of doing some more, but with gravel as I fitted a hopper on it now.

 

[GeorgeK]

Skip the drain jetter, a tree harvester and big wood chipper is what you need then!

View attachment 947254

Might be the sort of thing grants would be available for to see if it would help clean water coming out of field drains, the wood chip acting as a filter. It would definitely take up nitrogen

 

[Phil P]

Might be the sort of thing grants would be available for to see if it would help clean water coming out of field drains, the wood chip acting as a filter. It would definitely take up nitrogen

Possibly capture carbon underground as well?

 

[GeorgeK]

Possibly capture carbon underground as well?

I'm sure it would, bark/woodchip buried in damp clay might be the next best thing to a a peat bog? Saw in FW this week a hedge trimmer that collects the trimmings for biomass, maybe use it for drains instead and get paid for carbon capture whilst improving fields