- Location
- Sedgefield
Wonder if the OP has been happy or dismayed at the replies
farm jobs with houses and £25k a year plus perks are not easy to come by
farm jobs with houses and £25k a year plus perks are not easy to come by
Employment Law/Tied Cottage help!
- Thread starter mrsgiles
- Start date
Johnnyboxer
Member
- Location
- Yorkshire
She's not replied
glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
At least she asked the question.
Communication is the key to solving all problems
ollie989898
Member
What would you define as a sustainable and reasonable salary/package for someone in this line of work. I know people who are earning far more than that in a similar role?
- Location
- Sedgefield
Well that depends !!
how many members of staff, how much land to be looked after,is there stock
How much work the farmer can do, or wants to do
I guess working out how much a contractor would charge for the same work, then working out wether it’s feasible to keep staff & machinery or contract the work out
how much the farmer likes having staff around
communication is the key
Some members of staff are invaluable and are worth loads
Some are not.
All depends on individual circumstance
how many members of staff, how much land to be looked after,is there stock
How much work the farmer can do, or wants to do
I guess working out how much a contractor would charge for the same work, then working out wether it’s feasible to keep staff & machinery or contract the work out
how much the farmer likes having staff around
communication is the key
Some members of staff are invaluable and are worth loads
Some are not.
All depends on individual circumstance
betweenthelines
Member
- Location
- southwest
That's farmers, not staff. Especially the ones who say they do an 18 hr day, never have a holiday etc.
- Location
- South Wales UK
Is employer on here possibly???
Who on earth works 14 hrs a day 7 days a week for somebody else
kiwi pom
Member
- Location
- canterbury NZ
Unless the job's changed a lot since I did it, a lot of people at busy times of the year.
That is why I wrote, there are more questions needing to be answered from the OP, because 2 weeks of 100 hrs for example does not equate to all the time, plus no mention of perks. There is mention of no rent paid etc (so a lot more to this than just the side we have unfortunately), and that is not intended as a dig or anything - just showing the missing facts..
kiwi pom
Member
- Location
- canterbury NZ
I know nothing of the house side of things but the OP says his contract is for 39 hours a week, so roughly 2000 hours a year?
If he's doing way more than that he needs to re do the contract, perhaps go on hourly rate.
He should be having a yearly performance review, where these types of things can be discussed. Is this happening?
If he's doing way more than that he needs to re do the contract, perhaps go on hourly rate.
He should be having a yearly performance review, where these types of things can be discussed. Is this happening?
betweenthelines
Member
- Location
- southwest
Meanwhile, in the real world, a 39 or 40 hr week is the norm (I am on a 37.5 hr week) anything over your contracted basic hours is paid at time and a half, Sunday at double time, Bank Holiday also at time and a half, some employers also pay 15% unsocial hours premium. Overtime is optional, PPE is provided FOC, employer pays into you pension, provides tea, coffee etc. and even a clean toilet! You don't live on the premises, so you are not on call 24/7 for "emergencies" and can actually call your time off your own.
Fair enough, the guy in question may be on the notional wage in the region of £35k, but the O/T and Sunday hours he does probably means his real basic pay is about £10.00/hr.
I doubt many employers would be willing to work for that!
Fair enough, the guy in question may be on the notional wage in the region of £35k, but the O/T and Sunday hours he does probably means his real basic pay is about £10.00/hr.
I doubt many employers would be willing to work for that!
betweenthelines
Member
- Location
- southwest
14 hrs/day over 7 days should break down as follows:
5 days x 8 hrs=40 hrs at basic pay
5 days x 6 hrs O/T=30 hrs basic pay
Sat 14 hours O/T =21 hours
Sun 14 hrs at double =28 hrs
That week totals 119 hour of basic hourly rate, So on an annualised salary that should give the employee 2 extra weeks off on full pay or 7 weeks of 4 day weeks!
Two busy harvest weeks like that and I can image the farmer's reaction if come 1st December the employee said "Bye, see you next year!"
kiwi pom
Member
- Location
- canterbury NZ
The only salary I've ever work on is an annualised hours one. It's the only real way to be fair but needs policing properly.
I wouldn't work anywhere for a normal salary.
"Two busy harvest weeks like that and I can image the farmer's reaction if come 1st December the employee said "Bye, see you next year!""
Erm, in a previous job in fairly similar circumstances I'm afraid I did just that but I used it as my notice period as dialogue between my then employer and myself had reached a stalemate. I had sorted out a house to live in and another job prior to this as both my other half and I could see where things were going.
Erm, in a previous job in fairly similar circumstances I'm afraid I did just that but I used it as my notice period as dialogue between my then employer and myself had reached a stalemate. I had sorted out a house to live in and another job prior to this as both my other half and I could see where things were going.
Unfortunatley it does have to equate to your statement above, as you are assuming the contract states overtime is paid at x and y, or that OT hours will be given as TOIL...
Technically, as you nor I know what is written in the contract - I will reiterate my suggestion again, that the OP should seek professional advice because if this is becoming a big issue for them, because they could land themselves in a difficult position and potentially loose everything if they challenged the company on the above assumptions.
I am not saying I agree with how companies can work contracts in the UK and was something I was really against on UK contracts vs protections for workers in other countries, but hey, we sign these contracts and as such Employers are not legally obliged to pay overtime rates if it is not stated in the CoE, only ensure that your hourly rate does not fall below legal min wage which is averaged over the 17 weeks period for the WTD.
Overtime can be expected and contractually inferred if you signed it, if your contract states and you signed agreement of such then the company can expect the employee to respect that, but there are rules to prevent an employee working more than 48 hours per week if they have not opted out (averaged normally over 17 weeks or 52 weeks if you are in a collective agreement type situation). You can of course opt out of the WTD as many have done as it benefits them financially in a lot of cases...
Also, Agriculture falls into a pot whereby the working time directive allows for some exemptions to the norm due to the nature of the business - so again, not something non qualified people should advise upon imho..
So, I stand by there being far more questions to the OP's situation that needs to be investigated, and I would personally urge them to seek professional legal advice as obviously we do not have all the facts, and discussing this on an open forum whereby the OP's partners boss could be reading it..
- Location
- 200 miles N,NW of New York
All this talk about overtime, rates of pay, how many hours worked, along with perks, holidays, etc, is just what each think they should have or what they want to give,
No 2 farms are the same, and that also applies to contracts of employment,
Its ok say this and that, but what it comes down to, is what's in the contract of employment
As for salary paid staff, there is usually two types of contract, (but can be your own if so wish, due to the job)
1st is to do the job and finish, bit like a quote for a job, so the man paying knows what it will cost per year and can budget for it, so if it takes 5 hours or 15 hours a day, the same is paid,
2nd is an annualised hours scheme, this means from wages point of view its simple and same each month for employment, and as hours vary month to month some times employee owes hours, or hours ahead of target,
If employee owes hours they are expected to make them up in busy times,
If ahead of hours, either time off in Lue (if and slack at work, may get days back at employer's discretion) or if busy paid overtime, this is best split into 6 month periods for easy reckoning, so the employer can set a shift pattern to fit work load for that period,
As for hourly pay, its just simply that, more or less hours worked gives more or money,
Yet from an employer's point of view wages are different each pay day for staff,
I have employed staff and been employed myself in the past, so been both sides of the fence,
As for the house, thats a different kettle of fish,
A house with the job, if on site, then a good employee is never off duty while at home, even things like someone coming into yard, they go to see what they want, or may go do an hour or so at night to make things easier next day, part of the job for good staff, and no travelling costs in both time and money, out the door and at work, home for all meals, toilet etc,
A bad employee will not go the extra mile, and just sit in the house on time off, and not care whats going on outside.
As for the OP, they need to look not only at the contract of employment, but the bigger picture, it seem like the man was happy to take the job, and happy in his work, upto, and maybe beyond meeting the woman, and as with lots of things, it slowly gets to the other party, till it comes out their not happy, and it drags the relationship down, even if you don't think so, that's why I say look at the bigger picture, money is not the be all and end all of everything, things like walking the dog uninterrupted around the farm, seeing your partner at mealtimes either in the house or in the field, saving of running another car, or the worry of if you will get your 6 months assured shorthold tenancy renewed, and a rent free house to live in, can be piece of mind, and less to worry about, and him being call or working long hours may be a small price to pay on the day to day running things,
However the holidays does seem to be an issue, it is vital and important for both employees and employer's to take time out and go on holiday, if you don't, then the hum drum of daily chores, sets in along with boredom, and this does nothing for your own well-being mentally or physically, and work rates drop off, this can be seen in some threads on here, they say they cannot take time off, and boast of working 16 a day, yet in reality it is taking 16 hours to do a 11 job, as productivity has dropped off, a fresh worker will do the work of 2 dull workers
I think the law states 4 weeks holidays a year is minimum, which takes it to 20 days for someone working 5 days a week, ( or pro rata ) however bank holidays do not have to be paid at overtime rates at all if its a normal working day, and rostered in days to work,
So weight the job up, is it what you want ?, if not more on
No 2 farms are the same, and that also applies to contracts of employment,
Its ok say this and that, but what it comes down to, is what's in the contract of employment
As for salary paid staff, there is usually two types of contract, (but can be your own if so wish, due to the job)
1st is to do the job and finish, bit like a quote for a job, so the man paying knows what it will cost per year and can budget for it, so if it takes 5 hours or 15 hours a day, the same is paid,
2nd is an annualised hours scheme, this means from wages point of view its simple and same each month for employment, and as hours vary month to month some times employee owes hours, or hours ahead of target,
If employee owes hours they are expected to make them up in busy times,
If ahead of hours, either time off in Lue (if and slack at work, may get days back at employer's discretion) or if busy paid overtime, this is best split into 6 month periods for easy reckoning, so the employer can set a shift pattern to fit work load for that period,
As for hourly pay, its just simply that, more or less hours worked gives more or money,
Yet from an employer's point of view wages are different each pay day for staff,
I have employed staff and been employed myself in the past, so been both sides of the fence,
As for the house, thats a different kettle of fish,
A house with the job, if on site, then a good employee is never off duty while at home, even things like someone coming into yard, they go to see what they want, or may go do an hour or so at night to make things easier next day, part of the job for good staff, and no travelling costs in both time and money, out the door and at work, home for all meals, toilet etc,
A bad employee will not go the extra mile, and just sit in the house on time off, and not care whats going on outside.
As for the OP, they need to look not only at the contract of employment, but the bigger picture, it seem like the man was happy to take the job, and happy in his work, upto, and maybe beyond meeting the woman, and as with lots of things, it slowly gets to the other party, till it comes out their not happy, and it drags the relationship down, even if you don't think so, that's why I say look at the bigger picture, money is not the be all and end all of everything, things like walking the dog uninterrupted around the farm, seeing your partner at mealtimes either in the house or in the field, saving of running another car, or the worry of if you will get your 6 months assured shorthold tenancy renewed, and a rent free house to live in, can be piece of mind, and less to worry about, and him being call or working long hours may be a small price to pay on the day to day running things,
However the holidays does seem to be an issue, it is vital and important for both employees and employer's to take time out and go on holiday, if you don't, then the hum drum of daily chores, sets in along with boredom, and this does nothing for your own well-being mentally or physically, and work rates drop off, this can be seen in some threads on here, they say they cannot take time off, and boast of working 16 a day, yet in reality it is taking 16 hours to do a 11 job, as productivity has dropped off, a fresh worker will do the work of 2 dull workers
I think the law states 4 weeks holidays a year is minimum, which takes it to 20 days for someone working 5 days a week, ( or pro rata ) however bank holidays do not have to be paid at overtime rates at all if its a normal working day, and rostered in days to work,
So weight the job up, is it what you want ?, if not more on
To be honest, I didn't reply because I was overwhelmed with the replies. To clarify; this is my OH that's upset about the situation. He does not get all of his holiday or compensatory rest. The farmer will make him work ridiculous hours, double shifts etc so that he doesn't have to pay his harvest help hourly to come in.
To curlietailz; he doesn't waste hours. He's a very hard worker and only has his lunch break half of the year. If he's spraying/drilling/rolling, he has to keep going, and isn't allowed to stop even for 10 minutes to eat. He has to hide his tractor behind a tree when I bring out a hot dinner so he can eat it. If he works a 100 hour week, he's working every hour of that. It's a 1000 ha farm for clarity, and it's just him and 2 hourlys (who rarely come in because my OH is doing the work for nothing). You might call him a mug, but he's a hard worker and genuinely loves his job. If we could find something better, we'd be gone.
A few people asked for the market rent of the cottage. In our area I would say about £650 in it's current state. It's very run down, and the repairs done to it have all been done by us.
For those asking about perks of the job, there aren't any. We get free wood, that OH sources and chops if that counts. We pay all fuel and utilities.
I've contacted ACAS. The operator I spoke to had no clue about agricultural employment law, and I'm reluctant to sit in a 40 minute queue again to find someone who is.
I'd have to work out what hours he does on average. Off season, he works 8 hour days, sometimes going over by an hour or 2. This time of year it's usually 80 hours a week at a minimum.
I'll be honest, I don't know where he stands on minimum wage because of the tied accommodation. The biggest issue here is holiday. I came here for some general advice, so thank you to everyone who replied- I really appreciate it. I guess I was just looking for some confirmation that it's not acceptable to treat your worker in this way. His boss is also a bully, and screams and yells at him. He takes the mick out of him to the hourlys, and it leaves him feeling very bad knowing they're getting £12 an hour.
To curlietailz; he doesn't waste hours. He's a very hard worker and only has his lunch break half of the year. If he's spraying/drilling/rolling, he has to keep going, and isn't allowed to stop even for 10 minutes to eat. He has to hide his tractor behind a tree when I bring out a hot dinner so he can eat it. If he works a 100 hour week, he's working every hour of that. It's a 1000 ha farm for clarity, and it's just him and 2 hourlys (who rarely come in because my OH is doing the work for nothing). You might call him a mug, but he's a hard worker and genuinely loves his job. If we could find something better, we'd be gone.
A few people asked for the market rent of the cottage. In our area I would say about £650 in it's current state. It's very run down, and the repairs done to it have all been done by us.
For those asking about perks of the job, there aren't any. We get free wood, that OH sources and chops if that counts. We pay all fuel and utilities.
I've contacted ACAS. The operator I spoke to had no clue about agricultural employment law, and I'm reluctant to sit in a 40 minute queue again to find someone who is.
I'd have to work out what hours he does on average. Off season, he works 8 hour days, sometimes going over by an hour or 2. This time of year it's usually 80 hours a week at a minimum.
I'll be honest, I don't know where he stands on minimum wage because of the tied accommodation. The biggest issue here is holiday. I came here for some general advice, so thank you to everyone who replied- I really appreciate it. I guess I was just looking for some confirmation that it's not acceptable to treat your worker in this way. His boss is also a bully, and screams and yells at him. He takes the mick out of him to the hourlys, and it leaves him feeling very bad knowing they're getting £12 an hour.
- Location
- South Wales UK
Something need doing , as clearly going to make himself ill.
Think few agri lawyers on here so hopefully they can point you in the right, correct area.
Take care.
- Location
- Shropshire
Maybe Citizens Advice Bureau could point you in the right direction? Frustrating that ACAS can't help. Does his employment contract state that it is under the Agricultural Wages Board? If it doesn't, then you have the normal employment rights as a baseline, so you could find out where he stands against that background.