FE35 - 23C Engine rebuild

[Vizslaman]

Well the God's were smiling on me this morning as I finally got No's 1 & 4 piston out
No 4 came out complete with the liner and I still need to get the remains of No 1 liner out, but at least now I can lift the crankshaft out.
As I thought No 4 Big End Bearing had seized where the oil pump drive had failed.
I think the mains are OK but will not know for sure until I lift the crankshaft out, but it turns nice and freely.
Now I just need to find someone to purchase the useable parts as my search for pistons has not turned up anything.

 

[Mursal]

How bad are the pistons when washed?

 

[Vizslaman]

How bad are the pistons when washed?

Unfortunately pistons took a lot of beating on the small end casting (enough to drift the press fit liners out) and I would not be prepared to reuse them only to find a piston broke up 3 months later.

It may be possible to get custom liners made and use the 23C pistons but that depens on diameter of the gudgeon pin and also height of piston etc.

I do not think it warrants the expense of having custom liners made. (I have purchased a 23C engine already)

 

[andrew35]

@ Vizslaman just found this thread and joined up. I have been working on a 1959 35 with 23c engine for a while- it has been completely stripped to pieces partly for curiosty I must admit. For some reason my engine has no number stamped into it at all- judging by the state of the ex-loader tractor, it had a hard life so perhaps a new block was fitted. It ran before I took it to pieces- injectors and pump rebuild were the answer to getting it running for me.

I spent a considerable amount of time seeking pre-combustion chambers without luck. I ended up finding a couple of options if you/anyone still needs them; one I know of via the web using the OEM part number 1884 121 M91 and the other I had made but admittedly have yet to test. The Leyland commercial vehicle article you linked was very interesting- I was considering material analysis of a Ricardo chamber to determine the correct steel alloy but that gave it instead.

Valve seat inserts- I got tired of seeking exact fit options so have designed and had made some inserts for both inlet and exhaust that fit the original exhaust recess and should fit the workshop manual quoted recess for inlet once cut- I am free issuing these to an engine builder in the next few days to get them fitted, cut and skimmed. They are made from Serdi valve seat insert bar.

In case your OE160 engine is still a project, something I have never come across before and was curious to google, I found the following possible source of liners: http://www.bhalaraenterprise.com/leyland.htm

 

[Vizslaman]

Hi Andrew. I sold the OE160 on to a gentleman in Ireland.
I have a spare cylinder head that I have overhauled with 008" Skim, New Valves/ Springs/Guides and recut seats which I am keeping ready for when I overhaul the engine in my Grey/Gold

As you can see the 008" skim did not completely remove the pitting but IMO it will be fine.

 

[andrew35]

Looks very good to me. Have you seated the valves so that the face is flush with the skimmed head?

Have you or are you planning to fit heater plugs? I had a head drilled ready for modern heaters to be fitted- just in case... it was a quick job to get done. I used Richard at Otmoor Ironworks and he did the job while I waited. He doesn't keep his website prices that up to date, heater plugs are a lot cheaper- around £25 I think. http://otmoor-ironworks.co.uk/massey-ferguson-fe-35-4cyl-heater-plug-conversion/

For one head which I did not remove the pre-combustion chambers but I did have skimmed very lightly, I took the edges off the pre-combustion chamber ports because they ran to a very sharp edge, especially after skimming. It was evident from looking at several failed ones that a very thin edge readily cracks which I presume is caused by the thermal cycling; you may want to consider the same.

I'll post some photos when I get a chance.

 

[Hard Graft]

@ Vizslaman just found this thread and joined up. I have been working on a 1959 35 with 23c engine for a while- it has been completely stripped to pieces partly for curiosty I must admit. For some reason my engine has no number stamped into it at all- judging by the state of the ex-loader tractor, it had a hard life so perhaps a new block was fitted. It ran before I took it to pieces- injectors and pump rebuild were the answer to getting it running for me.

I spent a considerable amount of time seeking pre-combustion chambers without luck. I ended up finding a couple of options if you/anyone still needs them; one I know of via the web using the OEM part number 1884 121 M91 and the other I had made but admittedly have yet to test. The Leyland commercial vehicle article you linked was very interesting- I was considering material analysis of a Ricardo chamber to determine the correct steel alloy but that gave it instead.

Valve seat inserts- I got tired of seeking exact fit options so have designed and had made some inserts for both inlet and exhaust that fit the original exhaust recess and should fit the workshop manual quoted recess for inlet once cut- I am free issuing these to an engine builder in the next few days to get them fitted, cut and skimmed. They are made from Serdi valve seat insert bar.

In case your OE160 engine is still a project, something I have never come across before and was curious to google, I found the following possible source of liners: http://www.bhalaraenterprise.com/leyland.htm

I would be interested i more info on the precombustion chambers as that is What is holding mine back

 

[andrew35]

No problem- basically I found some which when modified, can fit. What I do not know is how long they will last, or how well they will work (yet). As I have little choice but to see, I will be finding out soon enough but I cannot say when as the tractor is still very much in pieces.

I found that a pre-combustion chamber part number ERR1223 which is for a landrover 2.5 Diesel engine can be modified to fit. I bought more than one brand and noticed there are quality differences between them e.g. in my opinion the Britpart casting was not as good as another I found which is branded 'Bearmach'. The Bearmach part number is BR 3567 and there is someone who sells four at a time on ebay for about £40 delivered which was the cheapest I found. Search for ebay item number 222338825433 or look up the ebay shop for "l-r-parts-ltd" who appear to be Bearmach agents.

These are the overall dimensions I can tell you from the Bearmach ones:

small diameter: 31.28 mm

large diameter of flange: 36.74 mm

thickness of flange: 4.36 mm

overall height: 19.32 mm

The pertinent dimensions I could take from the old inserts were as follows:
thickness of flange: 4.6 mm
overall height: 22.2 mm

These measurements were taken with a digital caliper. The old inserts were hard to measure given their state. I did not bother to measure the large diameter because once they had been removed by heating ( using a welder ) they had shrunk to a lose fit ( deliberately for removal without damaging the head )

By the way, the get the old ones out I used a bent steel bar and hammered them out through the injector hole carefully seeking not to damage the injector seat. The inserts were very tight and only came out once I heated them by welding onto their exposed face and letting them cool.

For reference/comparison, my manual for the 23c engine gives the following pre-combustion chamber dimensions:

The large diameter of insert flange should be between 35.776 to 35.750 mm

The recess in the head for the above should be between 35.725 to 35.700 mm

Depth of insert flange 4.775 to 4.724 mm

Depth of bore/recess in head 4.775 to 4.623 mm


I found that the above was wrong in my case, or should I say not always correct:

1- On the heads themselves ( I have two I am working on) the flange OD of the recess in the head was very slightly larger in the case of two of them ( there being eight recesses in two heads ), so I merely adjusted the insert size to suit- luckily it is reduction sized.

2- The depth of the existing flange bore/recess was also wrong; in my case both heads have a shallower recess (4.60 mm and 4.33 mm) than the manual stated which meant that as supplied, the Bearmach inserts sat very slightly below the face of one head i.e. by 4.6 - 4.36=0.24 mm so this head will need to be skimmed down by this amount, whereas the other head the inserts sat vary slightly proud by 0.27 mm so this head will need the inserts to be machined down to match the head. I assume that both my heads have been skimmed in the past; the moral here is you have no idea without reference feature checks or when you remove seat inserts and/or pre-combustion chambers. Whatever the reason, the Bearmach inserted heads are now ready for skimming flush so that the inserts are held in place by the lip of the cylinder sleeve once all installed. Hopefully there will be enough left of the head after all this skimming! I would have preferred only to skim the head down to the new inserts but this has not exactly been a straight journey so I'll have to live with it, or should I say the result.

I can confirm that the internal volume is slightly larger than the original Ferguson part which will decrease compression ratio slightly. I did my best to measure the displaced volume with water but it was not very accurate- I did not have a burette or indeed a completely intact old part. By my estimation the Bearmach plugs have an internal volume which is about 4% larger than the original. My thinking is that this should make insufficient difference ( especially given how badly my valves were worn and sunk into the head and my engine used to start without too much trouble ) and also the fact that later engines used a lower compression ratio, both Standard engines and Perkins. Regardless, with new valves and seats, I consider this should not be a problem- hopefully I am correct.

Head material- I believe the landrover engines had alloy heads and clearly the 23c engine has a cast iron head. My way to approach this is by the interference tolerance to which the inserts are machined for fitment. Clearly steel alloy valve seats can and are fitted to aluminium alloy heads so too then can other parts be fitted in the same manner. I was once told that roughly speaking, steel seat inserts in an alloy head should have a recess machined to 6.5 to 7.5 thou smaller diameter than the seat insert itself. For cast iron heads, the recess should be the insert diameter minus 4.5 to 5.5 thou. I am quite sure these tolerances are the topic of much debate in the engine builder circles so I offer this as my opinion only. What I did in practice was measure the actual pre-combustion chamber recess diameters and then machine the interference flange to suit based on the above tolernaces, tending on the side of more rather than less interference. I was able to press in the new pre-combustion chambers. I hope of course that they stay there...

Insert material- I read that the original inserts were probably made from Nimonic 80 steel alloy and elsewhere I read that the inserts should not be magnetic when the correc the grade of steel is used for the Bearmach inserts. I can confirm that they are not magnetic when using a very strong rare earth magnet, or at least the magnetism there is is almost imperceptible e.g. like a higher grade stainless steel.

The insert port opening is also slightly larger on the new inserts- my rough measurements are as follows:

original insert port= 11.5x8 mm
new insert port= 12x10 mm

The position of the port relative to the edge of the insert to it's narrowist side is 5 mm for the new ones and 6.5 mm for the original. These dimensions seem all ok to me, not least as many people open the ports to help starting anyway.

Pics to follow..

Another option is that there is a vendor in Germany advertising inserts which appear to be made by machining- I have no idea of their quality but the approach to making them is certainly interesting and if designed correctly would give more accurate volume figures compared to the originals. See here: https://www.ebay.de/itm/264698903001

 

[andrew35]

 

[andrew35]

Note that there are injector seat sleeves installed which you can just see in some photos.

 

[Vizslaman]

Looking good I will be interested to hear how they perform

 

[bokapita]

Dear Sir
I am just rebuilding my engine. Could you please tell me if your replacement precombustion chambers have worked successfully?
Boka

No problem- basically I found some which when modified, can fit. What I do not know is how long they will last, or how well they will work (yet). As I have little choice but to see, I will be finding out soon enough but I cannot say when as the tractor is still very much in pieces.

I found that a pre-combustion chamber part number ERR1223 which is for a landrover 2.5 Diesel engine can be modified to fit. I bought more than one brand and noticed there are quality differences between them e.g. in my opinion the Britpart casting was not as good as another I found which is branded 'Bearmach'. The Bearmach part number is BR 3567 and there is someone who sells four at a time on ebay for about £40 delivered which was the cheapest I found. Search for ebay item number 222338825433 or look up the ebay shop for "l-r-parts-ltd" who appear to be Bearmach agents.

These are the overall dimensions I can tell you from the Bearmach ones:

small diameter: 31.28 mm

large diameter of flange: 36.74 mm

thickness of flange: 4.36 mm

overall height: 19.32 mm

The pertinent dimensions I could take from the old inserts were as follows:
thickness of flange: 4.6 mm
overall height: 22.2 mm

These measurements were taken with a digital caliper. The old inserts were hard to measure given their state. I did not bother to measure the large diameter because once they had been removed by heating ( using a welder ) they had shrunk to a lose fit ( deliberately for removal without damaging the head )

By the way, the get the old ones out I used a bent steel bar and hammered them out through the injector hole carefully seeking not to damage the injector seat. The inserts were very tight and only came out once I heated them by welding onto their exposed face and letting them cool.

For reference/comparison, my manual for the 23c engine gives the following pre-combustion chamber dimensions:

The large diameter of insert flange should be between 35.776 to 35.750 mm

The recess in the head for the above should be between 35.725 to 35.700 mm

Depth of insert flange 4.775 to 4.724 mm

Depth of bore/recess in head 4.775 to 4.623 mm


I found that the above was wrong in my case, or should I say not always correct:

1- On the heads themselves ( I have two I am working on) the flange OD of the recess in the head was very slightly larger in the case of two of them ( there being eight recesses in two heads ), so I merely adjusted the insert size to suit- luckily it is reduction sized.

2- The depth of the existing flange bore/recess was also wrong; in my case both heads have a shallower recess (4.60 mm and 4.33 mm) than the manual stated which meant that as supplied, the Bearmach inserts sat very slightly below the face of one head i.e. by 4.6 - 4.36=0.24 mm so this head will need to be skimmed down by this amount, whereas the other head the inserts sat vary slightly proud by 0.27 mm so this head will need the inserts to be machined down to match the head. I assume that both my heads have been skimmed in the past; the moral here is you have no idea without reference feature checks or when you remove seat inserts and/or pre-combustion chambers. Whatever the reason, the Bearmach inserted heads are now ready for skimming flush so that the inserts are held in place by the lip of the cylinder sleeve once all installed. Hopefully there will be enough left of the head after all this skimming! I would have preferred only to skim the head down to the new inserts but this has not exactly been a straight journey so I'll have to live with it, or should I say the result.

I can confirm that the internal volume is slightly larger than the original Ferguson part which will decrease compression ratio slightly. I did my best to measure the displaced volume with water but it was not very accurate- I did not have a burette or indeed a completely intact old part. By my estimation the Bearmach plugs have an internal volume which is about 4% larger than the original. My thinking is that this should make insufficient difference ( especially given how badly my valves were worn and sunk into the head and my engine used to start without too much trouble ) and also the fact that later engines used a lower compression ratio, both Standard engines and Perkins. Regardless, with new valves and seats, I consider this should not be a problem- hopefully I am correct.

Head material- I believe the landrover engines had alloy heads and clearly the 23c engine has a cast iron head. My way to approach this is by the interference tolerance to which the inserts are machined for fitment. Clearly steel alloy valve seats can and are fitted to aluminium alloy heads so too then can other parts be fitted in the same manner. I was once told that roughly speaking, steel seat inserts in an alloy head should have a recess machined to 6.5 to 7.5 thou smaller diameter than the seat insert itself. For cast iron heads, the recess should be the insert diameter minus 4.5 to 5.5 thou. I am quite sure these tolerances are the topic of much debate in the engine builder circles so I offer this as my opinion only. What I did in practice was measure the actual pre-combustion chamber recess diameters and then machine the interference flange to suit based on the above tolernaces, tending on the side of more rather than less interference. I was able to press in the new pre-combustion chambers. I hope of course that they stay there...

Insert material- I read that the original inserts were probably made from Nimonic 80 steel alloy and elsewhere I read that the inserts should not be magnetic when the correc the grade of steel is used for the Bearmach inserts. I can confirm that they are not magnetic when using a very strong rare earth magnet, or at least the magnetism there is is almost imperceptible e.g. like a higher grade stainless steel.

The insert port opening is also slightly larger on the new inserts- my rough measurements are as follows:

original insert port= 11.5x8 mm
new insert port= 12x10 mm

The position of the port relative to the edge of the insert to i

 

[tomlad]

Lance , bundy bearshed is messing with one on utube atm .
23c

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8J1SVzcr2oQQO51inCF3AKSOt2-w51Do

 

[bokapita]

Just in case it is useful, I had a big problem of engine smoking, hard starting and awful fuel consumption on my French MF 35 with the 23c engine. This is in spite of rebuilding the entire engine 350 hours ago.
Tore it all apart and found a cracked cylinder liner (obviously rubbish material in the rebuild kit I bought) and ALL four liners shining and smooth like mirrors! All the honing having disappeared! I managed by sheer good fortune to find NoS genuine liners.
At the time of the first rebuild, I fitted a refurbed cylinder head from a UK specialist with glow plugs fitted, and it started perfectly to begin with, plus I used DEVES piston rings as I did not trust the kit ones. However, during this recent work I checked the pre-combustion chambers and found them all but completely blocked! This is something that (to my discredit) i did not do on the first rebuild. So i managed, using ball routing tools, long picks, screwdrivers, etc etc to dislodge huge chunks of ROCK hard carbon from the chambers, accessing them through the injector holes. It is my belief that this could not have built up in 350 hours, so my current view is that the efurbed head was almost completely coked up when I fitted it.

This time, the tractor is running even better than it ever did after the previous rebuild, sounds wonderfully smooth, has loads of power, responds the the throttle very well and progressively, and after 5 seconds on the glow plugs, starts after about 1 second on the starter! Therefore, if anyone is rebuilding a 23c motor, I think it would be well worth checking the condition of the pre-combustion chambers. You should be able to see daylight easily through the exit port into the cylinder and the injector holes. If you cannot, or only see a dim amount, get stuck in with the tools

 

[Jamiewoolcock]

Any spare 23c engine block about, current block OE160 engine cracked along the cylinder top? Jamie

 

[rick_vandal]

Lance , bundy bearshed is messing with one on utube atm .
23c

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8J1SVzcr2oQQO51inCF3AKSOt2-w51Do

Bundy bearshed is easy listening if you the have time. Myself, not a fan of Ricardo Comet or IDI in general! Ricardo was the 'go-to' combustion system to fit on petrol engines for say, Land Rover etc. Not long after the Perkins L4 was launched, the 4-270 was a revelation but it took longer for the 3-154 to go DI. Comet on the BMC B series never worked well, nor did Kubotas. IH bd 143 et al needed big batteries, so give me squish lip and a quick start every time.

 

[T7.210tier4b]

Hi,
I am just wondering has any one come across problems with the Timing Chain tensioner on a 23c engine.I have ordered two tensioners as I thought the first one was made incorrectly.where the tensioner bolts on to mine seems to be different as to one's I've seen in videos.see photos of mine and tensioners I've got.Anyone any ideas.Also because this project is going on so long i cannot find the old tensioner any where.Thanks.

 

[Blue.]

Hi,
I am just wondering has any one come across problems with the Timing Chain tensioner on a 23c engine.I have ordered two tensioners as I thought the first one was made incorrectly.where the tensioner bolts on to mine seems to be different as to one's I've seen in videos.see photos of mine and tensioners I've got.Anyone any ideas.Also because this project is going on so long i cannot find the old tensioner any where.Thanks.

Looks like your locator pin is stuck in on your 1st two pics.

 

[Blue.]

Watch this

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

Hi,
I am just wondering has any one come across problems with the Timing Chain tensioner on a 23c engine.I have ordered two tensioners as I thought the first one was made incorrectly.where the tensioner bolts on to mine seems to be different as to one's I've seen in videos.see photos of mine and tensioners I've got.Anyone any ideas.Also because this project is going on so long i cannot find the old tensioner any where.Thanks.

Just use the new slipper that runs on the chain of the new one, and fit it to old tensioner, then good to go,


New stuff is crap