Glyphosate alternative?

[Old McDonald]

I would like some suggestions based on general knowledge and experience please.

Last year, when I was unable to do any work for most of it, I had an influx of a weed that had first noticeably appeared the year before. Unfortunately most of it seeded last year. The commonest weeds have changed several times since I moved here as the fertility levels have been improved, possibly also because some had been suppressed by more aggressive and faster growing ones. I cannot identify the weed, and a specimen passed to my ag supplies man resulted in him and a couple of other customers not being able to name it. Because of age and my heart operation my wife and I have been in quarantine for coming up to 15 weeks - supplies are left in a vehicle at a distance from the house and picked up with protection later. We intend to remain quarantined for some time yet. Wait until infection levels drop a bit more. This means that even if the ag college opens I will not be taking a weed there for identification. I do not own a camera.

It is a summer growing annual with a good tap root and can grow to about 3ft/1m high. Single stem and upright with lanceolate leaves. Small flowers on top that look similar to groundsel. We have another weed that looks like a giant groundsel or small leaved chrysanthemum, but that is easily dealt with. After a late spring spraying the problem weed has no competition. Glyphosate at 6L/ha knocks it back and it remains stunted but does not die. 10L/ha has the same effect. I can stand this cover between the rows of trees as it prevents any windblow from the “willy willy” type winds we often get – mini tornadoes.

I want to kill it in the tree rows where the fertiliser and drip irrigation is supplied, also kill off the inter row growth in summer. I only have 4 hectares of trees at 6m centres between rows so cost is not important, especially along the tree rows. A clean tree line is important if it can be achieved. Hand hoeing is out of the question at present.

Any suggestions for a knock down that is likely to work, with or without a tank mix of glyphosate?

 

[Shutesy]

Not easy to suggest what to use without seeing what weed it is, do you not have a camera on your phone? Something like 2-4D or MCPA mixed with the Roundup will kill most things. I perhaps would't put on a public forum that you use Roundup at 10L/ha either.

 

[Bogweevil]

I would like some suggestions based on general knowledge and experience please.

Last year, when I was unable to do any work for most of it, I had an influx of a weed that had first noticeably appeared the year before. Unfortunately most of it seeded last year. The commonest weeds have changed several times since I moved here as the fertility levels have been improved, possibly also because some had been suppressed by more aggressive and faster growing ones. I cannot identify the weed, and a specimen passed to my ag supplies man resulted in him and a couple of other customers not being able to name it. Because of age and my heart operation my wife and I have been in quarantine for coming up to 15 weeks - supplies are left in a vehicle at a distance from the house and picked up with protection later. We intend to remain quarantined for some time yet. Wait until infection levels drop a bit more. This means that even if the ag college opens I will not be taking a weed there for identification. I do not own a camera.

It is a summer growing annual with a good tap root and can grow to about 3ft/1m high. Single stem and upright with lanceolate leaves. Small flowers on top that look similar to groundsel. We have another weed that looks like a giant groundsel or small leaved chrysanthemum, but that is easily dealt with. After a late spring spraying the problem weed has no competition. Glyphosate at 6L/ha knocks it back and it remains stunted but does not die. 10L/ha has the same effect. I can stand this cover between the rows of trees as it prevents any windblow from the “willy willy” type winds we often get – mini tornadoes.

I want to kill it in the tree rows where the fertiliser and drip irrigation is supplied, also kill off the inter row growth in summer. I only have 4 hectares of trees at 6m centres between rows so cost is not important, especially along the tree rows. A clean tree line is important if it can be achieved. Hand hoeing is out of the question at present.

Any suggestions for a knock down that is likely to work, with or without a tank mix of glyphosate?

Is this it:

 

[davidroberts30]

Not easy to suggest what to use without seeing what weed it is, do you not have a camera on your phone? Something like 2-4D or MCPA mixed with the Roundup will kill most things. I perhaps would't put on a public forum that you use Roundup at 10L/ha either.

it may be allowed in portugal

 

[Old McDonald]

Not easy to suggest what to use without seeing what weed it is, do you not have a camera on your phone? Something like 2-4D or MCPA mixed with the Roundup will kill most things. I perhaps would't put on a public forum that you use Roundup at 10L/ha either.

I said I do not have a camera. I do not have a mobile phone at present either. When I did it did not have a camera. I doubt that you would recognise the weed anyway. I have never seen it before and it does not appear in my wife's collection of plant books that covers (I think) anything likely to be found in Britain; also a lot of European wild plants. She cannot find anything remotely close otherwise we might have taken a guess at the possible family and searched from there.

The label says up to 12L/ha. I know I cannot get 2,4-D here. For some reason it has never been available. My ag supplier seems to think it was banned by the Portuguese government long ago, but he does not know why. It would have been my chemical of choice because I used it extensively in Australia. I did wonder about MCPA which is available, but I have never used it, hence the request for advice without suggesting anything else myself. Glyphosate has always done all I need up to now.

Is this it:

No, the leaves are much narrower and the flowers are similar to groundsel as I said. Curiosity - what is that one?

 

[Kidds]

If it is of the groundsel family I would expect clopyralid to knock it about at seedling/young plant stage.
Are you not governed by a list of allowed chemicals in your olives?
No doubt you are aware anyway but no harm reminding that some chemicals can be quite volatile in hot weather.

 

[milkloss]

No doubt you are aware anyway but no harm reminding that some chemicals can be quite volatile in hot weather.

Isn't 24d quite volatile? Might be why it's not available in Portugal.

 

[czechmate]

For broad leaf weeds mc, Dow Garlon Star is amazing

 

[deleted user 837354]

I'd be wary of applying anything around trees in the situation described.

 

[czechmate]

Well, no for eg garlon star wouldn’t want to drift onto your trees.
I’ve killed elder with it no trouble

 

[robbie]

The weed is gallant soldier, not sure what kills it but we have had a lot of it appear in the veggy garden this last few years.
If I had to make a suggestion I'd go with mcpa,24d,dicamba type product its but that's just my gut feeling and not definite.

 

[B'o'B]

@Oldmacdonald
https://www.bbg.org/news/weed_of_the_month_galinsoga Like this?

 

[Old McDonald]

Thank you all for responding.

If it is of the groundsel family I would expect clopyralid to knock it about at seedling/young plant stage.
Are you not governed by a list of allowed chemicals in your olives?
No doubt you are aware anyway but no harm reminding that some chemicals can be quite volatile in hot weather.

It is not groundsel or anything like it apart from the flower heads and flowers being similar to look at. If I ever get an identification I will post it here. I should have mentioned in the OP there is another weed that looks a bit similar to it in the early stages. Not so much a problem at this stage, but again glyphosate only stunts it. I am not keen on using clopyralid due to its persistency and known residue problems.

Yes, I only apply label approved quantities and frequencies. It is most prevalent in the nuts, but again I follow label recs. Low to mid 20s afternooon max at present (when I have my sesta) so not hot when I am spraying.

For broad leaf weeds mc, Dow Garlon Star is amazing

I am not surprised it is amazing on broadleafs. I used to kill trees with it in Australia. Axe cuts into the bark and inject it neat. Labelled here only for winter use close to vines and trees; for killing blackberries, gorse, acacia, broom, etc.; on uncultivated land for general weed control, or on grassland in spring. It would get rid of all the legumes in the sward though.

I'd be wary of applying anything around trees in the situation described.

Why? I do it several times a year to keep the rows reasonably clean. I use a hand lance on the sprayer, and it is extremely accurate at a distance of about 1m. Small low tractor no cab.

@Oldmacdonald
https://www.bbg.org/news/weed_of_the_month_galinsoga Like this?

This is the weed @Bogweevil posted above, and that is not it, but thanks to you and @robbie for naming it. Another tagging of poor Oldmacdonald.

At this stage I am thinking a glyphosate/MCPA mix, but still open to other suggestions.

 

[Old McDonald]

My wife reminded me that the last time she tried to identify the problem plant she found one that appeared similar to it and also the less problematic one but decided against it as it did not really match either.

She has done more research this afternoon including examining some growing plants in the field and confirms the nearest she can find, but still deciding against it, is Conyza Canadensis aka Erigeron Canadensis. Anybody sufficiently interested can check it out on the internet. It will be seen to take two forms – a more branched and shorter earlier flowering type and a taller non-flowering (perhaps late flowering) type. We think they are different plants, but could easily be wrong of course and it is just the one weed, merely appearing somewhat different on our property. In particular the flowers do not open in the way it is shown in photographs but remain closed until forming the “dandelion clock” type of seed head.

What is most interesting is that it was allegedly the first plant in USA to show glyphosate resistance back in 2001. Anybody have experience of this C./E. Canadensis?

In the US it is suggested to use 2,4-D or Dicamba against it. Also it becomes a major problem in no-till management. A quick search and I cannot find Dicamba available here. I will ask my supplier. I understand it has been banned in the US. I think life is going to become more difficult for us in the future.

 

[Bogweevil]

My wife reminded me that the last time she tried to identify the problem plant she found one that appeared similar to it and also the less problematic one but decided against it as it did not really match either.

She has done more research this afternoon including examining some growing plants in the field and confirms the nearest she can find, but still deciding against it, is Conyza Canadensis aka Erigeron Canadensis. Anybody sufficiently interested can check it out on the internet. It will be seen to take two forms – a more branched and shorter earlier flowering type and a taller non-flowering (perhaps late flowering) type. We think they are different plants, but could easily be wrong of course and it is just the one weed, merely appearing somewhat different on our property. In particular the flowers do not open in the way it is shown in photographs but remain closed until forming the “dandelion clock” type of seed head.

What is most interesting is that it was allegedly the first plant in USA to show glyphosate resistance back in 2001. Anybody have experience of this C./E. Canadensis?

In the US it is suggested to use 2,4-D or Dicamba against it. Also it becomes a major problem in no-till management. A quick search and I cannot find Dicamba available here. I will ask my supplier. I understand it has been banned in the US. I think life is going to become more difficult for us in the future.

Yes, that sounds right - Canadian fleabane, daisy family weed, is commonly resistant to glyphosate in UK, generally in amenity situations. There are various fleabanes and they can hybridise - others might be a weed problem in hotter regions than the UK.

Not so sure about hormone analogue weedkillers in tree rows, but if needs must! In the UK directed sprays of 2,4-D & glyphosate such as as Diamond are approved for apples so I expect there is something similar in your region. However consider also clopyralid, Dow Shield, - this is approved under an EAMU in the UK for use as directed spray specifically to deal with daisy family weeds in tree fruit crops, again perhaps there is a similar/approval in your region. Both 2,4-D and Dicamba will cause severe damage to tree crops is they contact foliage, suckers and I think even bark.

 

[Old McDonald]

Many thanks. I am suspicious about it (or them) beinga hybrid or local variant. It does not quite fit descriptions and photos of C. canadensis but close.

I am taking advice from my supplier and his suppliers about what is available. I know I will need to be careful, more so around olives where there is growth at the base. They do not sucker from the roots, but being naturally a multi-stemmed bush and not a tree it is normal for new growth to be appear very close to ground level on the majority of trees. Cuttings cannot be taken from olive roots, hence no root suckering.

 

[Bogweevil]

Many thanks. I am suspicious about it (or them) beinga hybrid or local variant. It does not quite fit descriptions and photos of C. canadensis but close.

I am taking advice from my supplier and his suppliers about what is available. I know I will need to be careful, more so around olives where there is growth at the base. They do not sucker from the roots, but being naturally a multi-stemmed bush and not a tree it is normal for new growth to be appear very close to ground level on the majority of trees. Cuttings cannot be taken from olive roots, hence no root suckering.

Hairy fleabane reported as a glyphosate resistant weed in Spanish olive groves.

 

[Old McDonald]

My ag supplier has come back to me with advice there are only two products available and they are Musketeer (Diflufenican + Iodosulfron-methyl-sodium + mefenpyr-diethyl) and Kyleo (2,4-D + glyphosate). As already posted 2,4-D alone is not supplied in Portugal.

I have only 4 hectares to cover so have ordered sufficient to treat it with both products. It is not a big outlay, €159 for 20L of Kyleo and €255 for 5L of Musketeer. Cost/ha is €40 and €51 respectively. If not used this year, then it is available for next.

It seems Musketeer was specifically introduced to Spain and Portugal to deal with fleabanes (called avoadinha here) and there are at least three of them which are problematic. I suspect, but no proof of course, that they have only been a minor problem in the past because other weeds were dominant. I have remarked before about how my problem weed has changed over time and I think those most susceptible to glyphosate or disturbance died out first, then followed in order of dominance until I am left with the glypho resistant one as the dominant weed.

Suitable spraying windows are going to be a problem for at least a week or so. Overnight minimums are over 20ºC with 26.3 and 27.4 after 11 pm last two nights, and 21.5 at 3 am today. They rise as soon as the sun does. I do not have a max temp for spraying Musketeer but am always reluctant to do any if temps go much over 25 anyway – the limit for Kyleo.

I will do the spaces between the rows first (trialling both products) and then assess the “between trees” hand lance work. It is fairly straightforward as a rule and almost all trees are old enough not to be bothered by most chemicals if the spray is kept down and not allowed to drift up onto the leaves, but I am always wary. If need be I can take out perhaps only the middle 2m in a 6m spacing and very close to most trees is usually weed free.

My supplier tells me he enquired of some agronomists as well as the chemical company reps and one suggested that I “damage” but not destroy the weeds before spraying. Apparently this gives a better kill. I note from the thread stevR started “Roundup/generic and 2,4-D??”, which incorporated remarks about Kyleo, that rolling Mares Tail was recommended. I do not have a roller but do have a couple of gadgets I made up from scrap as a heavy land leveller and a sort of upside down chain harrow – an implement I have always used for shallow covering of grass seed. Again, experimentation is called for. I will test these two and decide on the best option then have it attached to one tractor and do an area immediately in front of the sprayer on the other tractor.

I will report the results on the other thread rather than keep two similar ones going.

In the meantime, any thoughts on a surfactant with both products? Nothing mentioned by the chemical co. I have almost always used only washing up liquid in the past and have nothing else to hand. Ordering takes a while because of the small quantity I need.

 

[robs1]

My ag supplier has come back to me with advice there are only two products available and they are Musketeer (Diflufenican + Iodosulfron-methyl-sodium + mefenpyr-diethyl) and Kyleo (2,4-D + glyphosate). As already posted 2,4-D alone is not supplied in Portugal.

I have only 4 hectares to cover so have ordered sufficient to treat it with both products. It is not a big outlay, €159 for 20L of Kyleo and €255 for 5L of Musketeer. Cost/ha is €40 and €51 respectively. If not used this year, then it is available for next.

It seems Musketeer was specifically introduced to Spain and Portugal to deal with fleabanes (called avoadinha here) and there are at least three of them which are problematic. I suspect, but no proof of course, that they have only been a minor problem in the past because other weeds were dominant. I have remarked before about how my problem weed has changed over time and I think those most susceptible to glyphosate or disturbance died out first, then followed in order of dominance until I am left with the glypho resistant one as the dominant weed.

Suitable spraying windows are going to be a problem for at least a week or so. Overnight minimums are over 20ºC with 26.3 and 27.4 after 11 pm last two nights, and 21.5 at 3 am today. They rise as soon as the sun does. I do not have a max temp for spraying Musketeer but am always reluctant to do any if temps go much over 25 anyway – the limit for Kyleo.

I will do the spaces between the rows first (trialling both products) and then assess the “between trees” hand lance work. It is fairly straightforward as a rule and almost all trees are old enough not to be bothered by most chemicals if the spray is kept down and not allowed to drift up onto the leaves, but I am always wary. If need be I can take out perhaps only the middle 2m in a 6m spacing and very close to most trees is usually weed free.

My supplier tells me he enquired of some agronomists as well as the chemical company reps and one suggested that I “damage” but not destroy the weeds before spraying. Apparently this gives a better kill. I note from the thread stevR started “Roundup/generic and 2,4-D??”, which incorporated remarks about Kyleo, that rolling Mares Tail was recommended. I do not have a roller but do have a couple of gadgets I made up from scrap as a heavy land leveller and a sort of upside down chain harrow – an implement I have always used for shallow covering of grass seed. Again, experimentation is called for. I will test these two and decide on the best option then have it attached to one tractor and do an area immediately in front of the sprayer on the other tractor.

I will report the results on the other thread rather than keep two similar ones going.

In the meantime, any thoughts on a surfactant with both products? Nothing mentioned by the chemical co. I have almost always used only washing up liquid in the past and have nothing else to hand. Ordering takes a while because of the small quantity I need.

Rapeseed oil based stuff is often used here, have you any waste olive oil that might work

 

[davidroberts30]

Did we find out what plant it was?

Sorry if I've missed it somewhere