Groundswell Think Tank

[onesiedale]

so, please bear with me on this. I've posted here on the quiet side of the forum as it requires some deep thinking on everyone's part.

Following an 'Allan Savory' conversation after Groundswell it's clear that a movement has begun and it needs to gain traction. We all know that the paradigm has got to shift, not only with the farmers and growers but also with the general public and the policy makers.

Climate change, carbon capture, food production, education and resource management are all going to feature heavily in the successes (or failures) of our farm businesses and lifestyles.

So why not harness the collective knowledge and wisdom of TFF and create a Think Tank thread that we can all throw ideas into. Some of the ideas will be good, others not so good. Some of the other ideas may come from other forum sections and be put in by the moderators. The thread could just be the core ideas with no responses. Any discussion happening could take place elsewhere on the forum, that way stuff doesn't get lost in general chat.( and any civil servants looking for policy ideas can find it the think tank!)

Then in 11 months time the 'Groundswell Think Tank' can present it's suggested manifesto sort out climate change(and any other relevant issues) ahead of next years event to a packed media room in Westminster.

This way we could all express the activist in ourselves and hopefully create some big discussion about the policies that will affect us all . . . from the ground up. After all, that's what a Groundswell is, isn't it?

I appreciate that to do this properly will require some serious input from TFF and moderators. But then there is some serious lobbying (of society, government, education, finance and business sectors) to be done to get our resource base back into some kind of balance. We can't just carry on having misguided muckspreading thrown at us.
#Groundswell

 

[SilliamWhale]

Bloody hell this is a lot to wade through for an ice cream man!

 

[onesiedale]

Bloody hell this is a lot to wade through for an ice cream man!

Maybe, but could it work? It's certainly not one for a Mr Softee to take on!

 

[SilliamWhale]

To give this a more considered reply, I've been mulling over it.

What Allan Savory is on about is pretty enveloping and pretty "deep" to the extent that it is very very hard to replicate successfully. And I say this as someone who has spent a good few years looking at it and speaking to people who try to practice it. In wanting us to think holistically Savory is essentially asking us to ignore borders, ignore farmsteads boundaries etc. to make it properly successful - that is ultimate Holism.

His central theme - which is not connected to livestock production really but connected to optimum management of the ecology for the benefit of the planet is going to be virtually impossible to emulate. I can see that the principal of what he is saying is perfectly feasible - essentially that ungulates maintain and create a landscape that all other species and plants can benefit from and to think truly holistically you must allow them to move frequently as they would naturally. And that the more ungulates there are/ the more variety for the other species and plants there will be for the benefit of the ecology for that is how it was created anyway. I think its beyond challenging to do though - but I do agree with him that if you can think more holistically a lot of things that are "problems" will fall away. It just depends what kind of life you expect other people to lead etc.

But from the straight bat farming perspective presuming that we sort of want to maintain a lot of our agricultural structure and not rock the boat too much I'd say farmings biggest problem of the future from a Climate Change/ Envrionmental perspective is

1. Nitrogen - damned if we do and damned if we don't as production will suffer and we are not prepared for that yet
2. Relatively expensive Grain in Carbon and Soil terms for Meat but its cheap meat = happy populace. At the moment anyway.
3. I don't see Pesticides as a huge issue to be honest. I think they may naturally give way eventually


But I think you raise some interesting ideas about a more joined up Food/ Environment/ Social/ Climate policy which I think there would be a growing political appetite for. It won't be anywhere near Allan Savorys vision though I don't think, but it could develop into a better awareness of how we can plug the leaks/ reduce the energy/ and get our own systems more regenerative

 

[SilliamWhale]

I tell you what could be quite fun though - everyone having a stab at developing a holisticgoal and seeing what comes back. They'd likely be very similar and possibly there could be the development of a Groundswell Holistic Goal which could in turn be influenced and fed in by other stakeholders?

( I do reccomend a HM course btw)

 

[onesiedale]

@SilliamWhale , you came back at this very differently to what I thought would be the obvious route to focussing people's vision for what is going to put our landscape right for the future generations .

I do like the idea of the Groundswell Holistic Goal.
That in itself could set the scene for the vision of agriculture and food production and allow the stakeholders and policymakers to arrive at that goal, albeit by slightly different routes.

Perhaps a 'Think Tank' in it's true political and social lobbying sense is not what is needed as this would simply be just another pressure group competing with all the others for public opinion. Setting the Goals in the Holistic context will engage people from all sectors of influence and more likely bring less antagonistic ideas to the fore.

I agree that the Allan Savory higher level holism is not what is needed here, we just want to sort out what affects us in our industry.

 

[Clive]

I helped chaired a discussion with John Landers OBE and others about just this at groundswell ....... see @martian pre groundswell thread about Elterwater

The consensus was that lobbying government was pointless and we simply won’t need support in the future as natural capital and carbon bond markets evolve

I have some follow up meetings in London in a couple of weeks

Interesting times

Approaching from as many different angles as possible can’t do any harm however and TFF will of course. help in whatever way it can do

 

[Clive]

The biggest problem is one of leadership - right now ag has none that is effective or that is wanting to embrace this massive opportunity I’m afraid and instead all resource and energy seems to go into pointlessly trying to maintain a subsidised food production status quo

Money is needed to do anything well and the only ag organisation that really has any of significance is the NFU

 

[onesiedale]

Like I said, it's not for a Mr Softee!

However there are areas in which the joined up thinking approach needs to be worked on. NFU has just been mentioned, as has Ag. education in other threads, what about veterinary/APHA (proffession not supply trade) to allow simple block movements of livestock in closed loops on to arable farms then straight back home when cover crops are eaten?
It's all about moving that resource energy and money away from the status quo

 

[Clive]

Like I said, it's not for a Mr Softee!

However there are areas in which the joined up thinking approach needs to be worked on. NFU has just been mentioned, as has Ag. education in other threads, what about veterinary/APHA (proffession not supply trade) to allow simple block movements of livestock in closed loops on to arable farms then straight back home when cover crops are eaten?
It's all about moving that resource energy and money away from the status quo

As I say the only organisation with anything like the resource and money needed to achieve anything is the NFU - they have a lot of both so should be very effective

They have been seriously uninterested in this clear opportunity in the past however preferring to focus on securing subs for food production

Much as I would like to help (and will however I can) I’ve been around long enough to know that without money and the resources that secures its very hard to achieve much of significance

 

[snarling bee]

If you were involved in the NFU you would realise that they are embracing this opportunity.

They have targets for Ag to go carbon Zero before the UK as a whole.
They embrace that subsidies are all but gone, and they need to and will work with the regulators to shape the new environmental payments.

Stop bashing the NFU. Its easy to make a few points on this forum. The NFU needs a bit of time to wade through the minefield that is the subject.

 

[Daniel]

If you were involved in the NFU you would realise that they are embracing this opportunity.

They have targets for Ag to go carbon Zero before the UK as a whole.
They embrace that subsidies are all but gone, and they need to and will work with the regulators to shape the new environmental payments.

Stop bashing the NFU. Its easy to make a few points on this forum. The NFU needs a bit of time to wade through the minefield that is the subject.

Surely the NFU haven't signed up to Greta Thunbergs ridiculous CO2 scaremongering as well?!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

From over here, it looks like an almost complete dearth of connected thinking at most levels, from the government back down the line.

The main hurdle to overcome is the massive bloating - from the gov agencies, supply chain, middlemen - none of these dudes and dudettes are going to want to be out of work.
Hence there will be huge support for the status quo, again at every level, in my opinion.

Let me know how I can help, and I will in any way possible.

 

[Will Blackburn]

If you were involved in the NFU you would realise that they are embracing this opportunity.

They have targets for Ag to go carbon Zero before the UK as a whole.
They embrace that subsidies are all but gone, and they need to and will work with the regulators to shape the new environmental payments.

Stop bashing the NFU. Its easy to make a few points on this forum. The NFU needs a bit of time to wade through the minefield that is the subject.

They’re going to do it whilst trying to protect their members from change

 

[snarling bee]

As I say the only organisation with anything like the resource and money needed to achieve anything is the NFU - they have a lot of both so should be very effective
They have been seriously uninterested in this clear opportunity in the past however preferring to focus on securing subs for food production

As you have so much intimate knowledge on what they are doing now, then perhaps you will enlighten the TFF community.
I think you'll find in the past you had different views about arable farming and probably government payments. I assume you haven't claimed IACS, SPS or BPS.
I think most farmers would like to farm without subsidy, especially if the rest of the world didn't have them either. However securing income for those in LFA ,and for food security, many Governments have decided to support farm incomes.

Surely the NFU haven't signed up to Greta Thunbergs ridiculous CO2 scaremongering as well?!

I think the policy was being formulated well before we knew who she was. Climate change has been on everybody's agenda for a while has it not.

The NFU has to find a policy that leads the members/the industry forward. That can be a bit of a job when the CA lobby on here want to move forward at 1000mph, whereas others want more considered change, and some no change at all. You also have the usual corn v horn debates.

 

[SilliamWhale]

@SilliamWhale , you came back at this very differently to what I thought would be the obvious route to focussing people's vision for what is going to put our landscape right for the future generations .

.

In what way?

 

[Clive]

As you have so much intimate knowledge on what they are doing now, then perhaps you will enlighten the TFF community.
I think you'll find in the past you had different views about arable farming and probably government payments. I assume you haven't claimed IACS, SPS or BPS.
I think most farmers would like to farm without subsidy, especially if the rest of the world didn't have them either. However securing income for those in LFA ,and for food security, many Governments have decided to support farm incomes.


I think the policy was being formulated well before we knew who she was. Climate change has been on everybody's agenda for a while has it not.

The NFU has to find a policy that leads the members/the industry forward. That can be a bit of a job when the CA lobby on here want to move forward at 1000mph, whereas others want more considered change, and some no change at all. You also have the usual corn v horn debates.

Maybe do some background reading into natural capital bonds. Carbon bonds and green bond markets ?? You will answer many of your own questions

LFA / uplands / livestock guys probably will benefit more than anyone else from what I e seen so far

I have no idea what the NFU are doing, I’m no longer a member, what I do know is it certInly doesn’t seem to be very effective and what I do hear from them is leading us backward not forward

Food production based subs are history, we need to look to the future now and to do that we need forward thinking leadership

 

[Clive]

If you were involved in the NFU you would realise that they are embracing this opportunity.

They have targets for Ag to go carbon Zero before the UK as a whole.
They embrace that subsidies are all but gone, and they need to and will work with the regulators to shape the new environmental payments.

Stop bashing the NFU. Its easy to make a few points on this forum. The NFU needs a bit of time to wade through the minefield that is the subject.

18 million annual payroll - sorry to criticise and expect results for that !

Farmers are hard to please apart when it comes to leadership it seems !

They are not useless. FAR from it BUT they should be MUCH better and there has never been a more important time for good strong effective leadership

 

[Jungle Bill]

To give this a more considered reply, I've been mulling over it.

What Allan Savory is on about is pretty enveloping and pretty "deep" to the extent that it is very very hard to replicate successfully. And I say this as someone who has spent a good few years looking at it and speaking to people who try to practice it. In wanting us to think holistically Savory is essentially asking us to ignore borders, ignore farmsteads boundaries etc. to make it properly successful - that is ultimate Holism.

Ultimate holism is great in a conference talk but when using holistic management on a farm level it is useful to recognise the “wholes within wholes” we are working with to keep thing manageable. This approach can make it apparent that big problems are often only able to be fixed by a million small manageable solutions.

 

[Jungle Bill]

@SilliamWhale , you came back at this very differently to what I thought would be the obvious route to focussing people's vision for what is going to put our landscape right for the future generations .

I do like the idea of the Groundswell Holistic Goal.
That in itself could set the scene for the vision of agriculture and food production and allow the stakeholders and policymakers to arrive at that goal, albeit by slightly different routes.

Perhaps a 'Think Tank' in it's true political and social lobbying sense is not what is needed as this would simply be just another pressure group competing with all the others for public opinion. Setting the Goals in the Holistic context will engage people from all sectors of influence and more likely bring less antagonistic ideas to the fore.

I agree that the Allan Savory higher level holism is not what is needed here, we just want to sort out what affects us in our industry.

Most of the big changes in farming practice have started on one farm and spread farm by farm to become the accepted norm. I believe change will happen fastest by helping many individual land managers to develop and live within their own holistic context, while recognising the bigger and neighbouring wholes they are working with. A Groundswell Holistic Context would be really useful as a box to hold all the individual farm contexts.
Too often change is rejected by farmers because is presented as a one size fits all concept which must be adopted by everyone.
Holistic management training is essential to understand what is best for your own individual situation.