Profitable Lifetime Index (PLI) question

[Bald Rick]

One for the pedigree boys amongst us I think?

Now, do you have a cut off PLI for your cows/heifers?

To give you an example, we are batch syncing about 50 heifers this week and going through the pedigrees, 20 of these have PLIs over 300 with 7 of those over 350.
Would you only serve those over 350 with Jersey semen or all 20? Does that seem reasonable? Thoughts

Those below 300 are going to be served with Holstein as part of our HoJo experiment.

 

[dinderleat]

Work out how many heifers you need. Then buy enough straws to get desired amount at x conception rate. Which should give you amount of heifers to serve. And then serve The pli top heifers. And it’s pointless serving your worst genetic Heifers to Holstein as it’s not really a fair trial. Better to do half and half

 

[dinderleat]

Though with jerseys a jersey heifer calf is probably worth more than anything else so serve everything and just test and sell as the calve.

 

[organicguy]

Are the PLI based on genomic test or just parental prediction?

 

[Bald Rick]

Are the PLI based on genomic test or just parental prediction?

Parental prediction at the moment. Genomic testing would be ideal but PP at least gives a steer

 

[Bald Rick]

Though with jerseys a jersey heifer calf is probably worth more than anything else so serve everything and just test and sell as the calve.

Trouble is that we tend to keep every heifer and I worry that with sexed semen the market will get saturated especially if certain rules come in to force.
We are carrying more heifers than required as replacements so I was interested if anyone was using a certain PLI number as a cut off point

 

[dinderleat]

Trouble is that we tend to keep every heifer and I worry that with sexed semen the market will get saturated especially if certain rules come in to force.
We are carrying more heifers than required as replacements so I was interested if anyone was using a certain PLI number as a cut off point

They keep saying that but it hasn’t happened yet, to many are killed with tb.

 

[dinderleat]

I think the advice is to test and only keep your top 25% To breed from so it doesn’t matter what pli it is as, you are just trying to improve your genetics at a faster rate. I’m sure there’s some info showing the calculations some where.

 

[epfarms]

The theory is right but unfortunately PP is just too inaccurate. All of the accuracy and relevance of the PLI (or any version of this) system comes from the accuracy of data going in the front end.
Essentially, if your breeding is generally sensible, your heifers should have higher genetic merit than cows - so serve these for replacements in preference to most cows as step one. As you have got improved data for your cows, you can better judge which cows are of high enough merit to also serve.

 

[epfarms]

I think the advice is to test and only keep your top 25% To breed from so it doesn’t matter what pli it is as, you are just trying to improve your genetics at a faster rate. I’m sure there’s some info showing the calculations some where.

There are a million different models, most hinge on how many heifers you need and if you are able to perform ET.
For example, 25% of top genomic heifers served to sexed (assuming no cows) would provide rapid genetic progress (second only to incorporating ET) but would require a much lower than average replacement rate (and no TB!!)

 

[vantage]

You're lucky to have that option. The list above is yesterday's TB test result. Absolutely decimating my autumn first calved heifer group.

 

[Princess Pooper]

You're lucky to have that option. The list above is yesterday's TB test result. Absolutely decimating my autumn first calved heifer group.

So sorry to see that, it is devastating to lose so many young cows.

 

[jerseycowsman]

One for the pedigree boys amongst us I think?

Now, do you have a cut off PLI for your cows/heifers?

To give you an example, we are batch syncing about 50 heifers this week and going through the pedigrees, 20 of these have PLIs over 300 with 7 of those over 350.
Would you only serve those over 350 with Jersey semen or all 20? Does that seem reasonable? Thoughts

Those below 300 are going to be served with Holstein as part of our HoJo experiment.

I don’t use pli very much. Lots of foreign (mainly danish) bulls come in with stinking PLI over 500 sometimes. Then within a year it’s dropped down to 200! Without any daughters even milking! I find it rubbish. I examine the pedigree and figures myself and make up my own mind. I don’t like the “computer says no” style of breeding!

 

[Princess Pooper]

We don't have a cut-off PLI, but it we fancied a bull with a relatively low PLI then I look closely at what is pulling it down. As we are 100% Holstein, I take it for granted that they can produce volume as long as they are fed properly. We are paid on constituents for cheese but have an A and B quota system based on litres so are always looking for high % constituents, as well as a decent fertility, not too much stature and a SCC reducer. So a bull like Goodwhone (yes I know the temperament horror stories but we are milking some already) appealed because his constituents are brilliant but a low +kg of milk pulls his £PLI down. It all depends what your overall breeding objectives are and how much you look at type as well.

 

[Princess Pooper]

Although we have been using sexed for 20 years, we don't just serve the 'best' cows (on either PLI or actual performance) to sexed. We start serving on a certain date and serve for 3-4 weeks to sexed, so that is all the heifers and then the most fertile cows ie the front of our block - we are not a tight block). So we are serving our most fertile cows by default - if we have a fourth or fifth calver that is in the front of the block still then she deserves some sexed semen unless there is something else seriously wrong with her. Then we switch to beef - no matter how good the cow, I don't want a 'late' heifer calf from her as it will probably never catch up with the rest of the batch. The only exception would be if we are under TB.

 

[Llmmm]

The theory is right but unfortunately PP is just too inaccurate. All of the accuracy and relevance of the PLI (or any version of this) system comes from the accuracy of data going in the front end.
Essentially, if your breeding is generally sensible, your heifers should have higher genetic merit than cows - so serve these for replacements in preference to most cows as step one. As you have got improved data for your cows, you can better judge which cows are of high enough merit to also serve.

I really wonder of all this pli figures vj link was a jersey leader pli for years he was promoted as the ideal grazing jersey he turned out to produce frail small daughters with very average milk

 

[Llmmm]

I don’t use pli very much. Lots of foreign (mainly danish) bulls come in with stinking PLI over 500 sometimes. Then within a year it’s dropped down to 200! Without any daughters even milking! I find it rubbish. I examine the pedigree and figures myself and make up my own mind. I don’t like the “computer says no” style of breeding!

I find the dainish daughter proven bulls very accurate and would trust them and norwegian red testing program there both not afraid to tell the truth and publish the figures

 

[More to life]

For what it’s worth all my heifers go to sexed and they are all sired by high pli genomic bulls. To maintain numbers I serve my best 20% in the cows to sexed once. I’m convinced above this genomic testing will only add cost. I doubt I serve much below 300 pli in the cows.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t use pli very much. Lots of foreign (mainly danish) bulls come in with stinking PLI over 500 sometimes. Then within a year it’s dropped down to 200! Without any daughters even milking! I find it rubbish. I examine the pedigree and figures myself and make up my own mind. I don’t like the “computer says no” style of breeding!

I find that the Danes have an incredible turn over of sires. So much so that we only use one bull for 3 months then on to the next . With the tie up between Viking Genetics and Jersey UK, it’s getting easier to source their top bulls rather than having to wait 12 months whilst the co-op members fill their boots.
Coming to the end of a run of Kantona semen

 

[Rossymons]

One for the pedigree boys amongst us I think?

Now, do you have a cut off PLI for your cows/heifers?

To give you an example, we are batch syncing about 50 heifers this week and going through the pedigrees, 20 of these have PLIs over 300 with 7 of those over 350.
Would you only serve those over 350 with Jersey semen or all 20? Does that seem reasonable? Thoughts

Those below 300 are going to be served with Holstein as part of our HoJo experiment.

I wouldn't serve the below 300 as part of the experiment. Cross breeding and the hybrid vigour is the same as pedigree essentially - the best cow being mated to the best bull. If one of those is already poor then the best you can hope for is average at best. It's not a fair comparison.

As for you minimum PLI - consult your Genetic Report and see where it stacks up on the Herd Standards table found at AHDB Dairy.

I wouldn't be upset to serve all of them to Sexed Jersey. Since the inception of sexed semen some 15+ years ago it has often been said that there will be a surplus of heifers on the market. So far it hasn't happened. In the past 12 months over 800 cattle per week were slaughtered in Britain for TB alone.