Recovery from acidosis?

[hoff135]

I've a gimmer which I think has acidosis. They were only on 1/3 lb of nuts per day plus silage, but I was feeding them in boxes and filling 2 ring feeders with silage from the bale by hand as they wernt eating the bales whole that well. What was happening a good few were leaving the nuts and going to the silage. Last week I was heading home and I noticed quite a bit of feed left in the troughs l, and only a few left eating and thought to myself that's not good.

Anyway couple of days later had them in for heptivac and noticed one doing rapid breathing. Next day she went to feed but quickly left and lay down. I took her home and it occurred to me it might be the feed. Symptoms were grinding teeth, staggering, shallow rapid breathing.

I've got her on antibiotics, and started on 2 tea spoons of bicarbonate of soda in water 3 times a day as of yesterday. I was giving gaviscon over the weekend. Can stand and walk a little and is eating a little grass but not really getting much better. Not had feed now since Thursday.

I'm not 100% sure it's acidosis but was hoping I'd see improvement by now, how long do they take to come right?

 

[andybk]

if it is acidosis get some yoghurt into them as rumen bugs will be killed off ,

 

[z.man]

Could take 2-4 weeks depending how bad and if by right you mean 100% probably see a 80% improvement within a week probably get over the acidosis then take twin lamb she is a sheep after all

 

[hoff135]

Any idea how long I need to keep giving the bi carb?

Little bit better today, walking about more and eating grass. Still grinding teeth

 

[andybk]

Any idea how long I need to keep giving the bi carb?

Little bit better today, walking about more and eating grass. Still grinding teeth

buy a bag of bicarb from ag merchants (can get 20kg bag reasonably ) and add to some sbp or similar , try and get rumen working again

 

[hoff135]

buy a bag of bicarb from ag merchants (can get 20kg bag reasonably ) and add to some sbp or similar , try and get rumen working again

20kg? I'm giving 2 tea spoons in water, 3 times a day how much do they need?

 

[idgni]

I’d change your tea spoon to table spoon,
And add a bit of twin lamb drench if your concerned about her energy uptake
,
I find these are very good to get the rumen restarted , local agri supplier or vets will have them

Provita Rumen Stimulant 100gDefault Title

Your local retail store. We sell Agricultural, Equestrian, Pet feed and related accessories. We are also stockists of Country Clothing and Footwear.

www.wellandvalleyfeeds.co.uk

 

[andybk]

20kg? I'm giving 2 tea spoons in water, 3 times a day how much do they need?

wont hurt to add some to feed anyway for a while , useful in lamb creep as well just to keep rumen stable if your feeding creep

 

[puppet]

What is the difference between acidosis and twin lamb? Part of the same problem. Until you correct the energy problem won't improve. Bicarb will briefly correct acidosis but she will still be producing lots of ketones.
Drench daily or jag, encourage to eat nuts and some fresh grass if possible.
Should improve quickly.....or die.

 

[hoff135]

What is the difference between acidosis and twin lamb? Part of the same problem. Until you correct the energy problem won't improve. Bicarb will briefly correct acidosis but she will still be producing lots of ketones.
Drench daily or jag, encourage to eat nuts and some fresh grass if possible.
Should improve quickly.....or die.

I very much doubt its twin lamb. Surely nuts is the last thing it needs?

 

[yoki]

What is the difference between acidosis and twin lamb? Part of the same problem. Until you correct the energy problem won't improve. Bicarb will briefly correct acidosis but she will still be producing lots of ketones.
Drench daily or jag, encourage to eat nuts and some fresh grass if possible.
Should improve quickly.....or die.

I guess potentially acidosis could lead to twin-lamb, but that's a "cause and effect" thing rather than directly related.

 

[idgni]

What is the difference between acidosis and twin lamb? Part of the same problem. Until you correct the energy problem won't improve. Bicarb will briefly correct acidosis but she will still be producing lots of ketones.
Drench daily or jag, encourage to eat nuts and some fresh grass if possible.
Should improve quickly.....or die.

Completely different!
Acidosis is where the papillae on the rumen lining are burnt by acid produced when too much concentrate has been eaten, stoping them absorbing nutrients,

twin lamb is when sheep is breaking down fat off her back producing energy via a process called “ketosis” the ketones produced become toxic if too much fat is being broken down.
Hence why I say to supplement the sheep with some twin lamb drench to help prevent her entering ketosis and a bigger problem as the rumen isn’t absorbing as many nutrients as needed.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

twin lamb is when sheep is breaking down fat off her back producing energy via a process called “ketosis” the ketones produced become toxic if too much fat is being broken down.

It's actually caused by the burning of muscle when all the fat has been used up. Ketones are the byproduct of that process.

 

[idgni]

It's actually caused by the burning of muscle when all the fat has been used up. Ketones are the byproduct of that process.

Fat first for energy, the muscle if insufficient protein in the diet.
The fat stage will drop a ewe in TLD as quick as the muscle stage will

 

[Guleesh]

I've a gimmer which I think has acidosis. They were only on 1/3 lb of nuts per day plus silage, but I was feeding them in boxes and filling 2 ring feeders with silage from the bale by hand as they wernt eating the bales whole that well. What was happening a good few were leaving the nuts and going to the silage. Last week I was heading home and I noticed quite a bit of feed left in the troughs l, and only a few left eating and thought to myself that's not good.

Anyway couple of days later had them in for heptivac and noticed one doing rapid breathing. Next day she went to feed but quickly left and lay down. I took her home and it occurred to me it might be the feed. Symptoms were grinding teeth, staggering, shallow rapid breathing.

I've got her on antibiotics, and started on 2 tea spoons of bicarbonate of soda in water 3 times a day as of yesterday. I was giving gaviscon over the weekend. Can stand and walk a little and is eating a little grass but not really getting much better. Not had feed now since Thursday.

I'm not 100% sure it's acidosis but was hoping I'd see improvement by now, how long do they take to come right?

When we bring in hoggs to train to eat we sometimes have the odd one come down with what I assume is acidosis, it's usually cross texels that hit the feed hard straight away. 50/50 whether they live or die, if they live they take weeks to recover and they still aren't quite right.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Fat first for energy, the muscle if insufficient protein in the diet.
The fat stage will drop a ewe in TLD as quick as the muscle stage will

I know being too fat can be a factor, which I've always found difficult to understand.

Edit, fat. I meant fat.

 

[puppet]

Completely different!
Acidosis is where the papillae on the rumen lining are burnt by acid produced when too much concentrate has been eaten, stoping them absorbing nutrients,

twin lamb is when sheep is breaking down fat off her back producing energy via a process called “ketosis” the ketones produced become toxic if too much fat is being broken down.
Hence why I say to supplement the sheep with some twin lamb drench to help prevent her entering ketosis and a bigger problem as the rumen isn’t absorbing as many nutrients as needed.

Maybe need @ollie989898 to update us on some biochemistry. Here is my understanding.
Firstly, why did the OP think it was acidosis? Sheep near lambing probably underfed at 1/3lb per day goes off food, lies down and grinds teeth would make me TLD (which will include acidosis as a result)
Lack of energy via glucose so moves her fat stores to ketones via the liver. Ketosis is not the process but an elevation in ketones as the liver struggles to cope. Too many ketones then causes acidosis in the blood because of the altered metabolism, hence called ketoacidosis.
Correcting some acidosis with bicarbonate will help but only if it gets the ewe improved enough to eat again. Hence the need for glucose orally or subcut to reset the metabolism as well as to administer some calcium which is often also low. If she keeps metabolizing fat then a vicious cycle to death.
Possibly has dead lambs in her and sooner born the better.
That is my understanding from experience and Google

 

[hoff135]

Maybe need @ollie989898 to update us on some biochemistry. Here is my understanding.
Firstly, why did the OP think it was acidosis? Sheep near lambing probably underfed at 1/3lb per day goes off food, lies down and grinds teeth would make me TLD (which will include acidosis as a result)
Lack of energy via glucose so moves her fat stores to ketones via the liver. Ketosis is not the process but an elevation in ketones as the liver struggles to cope. Too many ketones then causes acidosis in the blood because of the altered metabolism, hence called ketoacidosis.
Correcting some acidosis with bicarbonate will help but only if it gets the ewe improved enough to eat again. Hence the need for glucose orally or subcut to reset the metabolism as well as to administer some calcium which is often also low. If she keeps metabolizing fat then a vicious cycle to death.
Possibly has dead lambs in her and sooner born the better.
That is my understanding from experience and Google

Sheep is scanned with a single over a month off lambing. 1/3lb of nuts is more than I'd normally give them but grass and silage is short, these are North Country cheviots you can do more harm than good with feeding singles. In all my years and my father's we've only seen about 2 cases of possible twin lamb.

 

[puppet]

My Texel singles get no hard feed, only licks.
Time for a vet

 

[ollie989898]

Maybe need @ollie989898 to update us on some biochemistry. Here is my understanding.
Firstly, why did the OP think it was acidosis? Sheep near lambing probably underfed at 1/3lb per day goes off food, lies down and grinds teeth would make me TLD (which will include acidosis as a result)
Lack of energy via glucose so moves her fat stores to ketones via the liver. Ketosis is not the process but an elevation in ketones as the liver struggles to cope. Too many ketones then causes acidosis in the blood because of the altered metabolism, hence called ketoacidosis.
Correcting some acidosis with bicarbonate will help but only if it gets the ewe improved enough to eat again. Hence the need for glucose orally or subcut to reset the metabolism as well as to administer some calcium which is often also low. If she keeps metabolizing fat then a vicious cycle to death.
Possibly has dead lambs in her and sooner born the better.
That is my understanding from experience and Google

Sounds about right. Using knowledge from both degrees here mind...

Lack of energy so fatty acids are oxidised by metabolism. Ketone bodies produced (predominantly beta-hydroxybutyrate in humans) are acidic and so the blood becomes (mildly) acidic. In theory the kidneys/lungs are able to counteract this.

In animals you can get an acidosis of the rumen where the microbes in the rumen attack lots of readily available carbohydrates in the diet and produce a shed load of fatty acids as a by product, making the rumen far too acidic for their liking and basically inhibiting digestion and causing big GI upset. The swamp of fatty acids entering the system I presume could overwhelm the animal and drive it into an acidaemia but that's well beyond my level of understanding.