But since when have the World establishment had a say in the running of the British National?
How come both the Republic and Northern Ireland send representatives to the World match - and have done for some time.
More water with it?
SOP AGM.
- Thread starter ploughman61
- Start date
But since when have the World establishment had a say in the running of the British National?
How come both the Republic and Northern Ireland send representatives to the World match - and have done for some time.
More water with it?
More to it than that Harry. At one AGM it was proposed to bar the Welsh which apparently had Ray Goodwin in tears. It would appear that the motion was not passed.
Ireland is divided and classed as two separate countries. Is having a Border not a clue?
This is looking some way into the future when perhaps the vintage ploughmen are reunited behind the new organisation. We therefore have to consider who we can or should represent .
- Location
- Acton Scott, South Shropshire
Just one thought - all this talk of a new organising body - are you going to be all inclusive? Do you think World Style and Reversible ploughmen are happy with the status quo?
As far as I am concerned this is about management of the organisation not about styles of ploughing. When I held matches, everyone was welcome where possible, including horticultural - no politics.
The biggest gripe has always been exclusivity and elitism. We are all ploughmen!
As far as I am concerned this is about management of the organisation not about styles of ploughing. When I held matches, everyone was welcome where possible, including horticultural - no politics.
The biggest gripe has always been exclusivity and elitism. We are all ploughmen!
We are indeed all ploughmen Colin but two very salient points.
It would be self deprecating for Wordstylers to plough in an organisation which was not allowed on the world stage.
Most of the ill feeling in the scruffy classes comes from their treatment over the years. Historically they have been very poor cousins to World Style, Machinery Demonstrations, Steam Ploughing and at Lincoln Doe Tractors and Car Parking - and that’s before the cost of qualifying regardless of what Chris Evans was told on his breakfast show.
A valid point for discussion though. Early days. As is either / or membership
- Location
- Acton Scott, South Shropshire
So lets be clear - are you about setting up an alternative to the SOP for classes other than World Style and Reversible? Why would you not just set up an alternative to the SOP? Your grievance in the main pertains to mismanagement of funds and poor treatment of members, including under-reprenstation of the vintage classes in day to day affairs and at National matches. Will you now be guilty of retribution by exclusion of fellow ploughmen, some of whom have fought your corner (albeit unsuccessfully) behind the scenes for several years, spoke out at the AGM and tried to bring about change. Unless you are very careful you are in danger of wearing the same colours as the present governance, just in a different coat! You should remember that what ploughing is about competing against and enjoying the company of other ploughmen/women - not creating a them and us situation, sidelining people who have shared some of your views and spoken out for change.
I say any new society should be all encompassing and have open doors to all classes otherwise you are as guilty as those you accuse! If you wish to set up a seperate group just for those you deem worthy then good luck, but you wont have my support - not that you need it.
I say any new society should be all encompassing and have open doors to all classes otherwise you are as guilty as those you accuse! If you wish to set up a seperate group just for those you deem worthy then good luck, but you wont have my support - not that you need it.
- Location
- Acton Scott, South Shropshire
Why self deprecating? Folowing on from above - does any new society seek affiliation to the World and European bodies and seek to have representatives at their matches? Surely, for any world style men or rev men, its only an issue if you want to plough at those events - the vast majority have no such ambitions and probably wouldnt ever achieve that level. There are many however who recognise that the SOP isnt representing everyone and would welcome the chance to join an organisation who they felt was.
I will wait to see how this develops but I sense that some just see this as a chance to 'do in the SOP' rather than a chance to build a better, all encompassing, representative body for ploughing/ploughmen/women as a whole.
Dealer
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
My biggest reservation in this, is that the focus is not about ploughing but to get back at Sop.
I have no interest in the Sop argument other than they pretend to have all ploughing at heart when this is just a smoke screen. So an alternative is required.
Why would any new organisation want to alienate a section is behond me.
Think about trying to encourage existing matches to be affiliated to the new group, yes we want your vintage stuff but you can stick your world style thank you. I know what I would say if that was the case.
Lots to think about and nothing should be left off the table at this stage, some experienced men still ploughing in the world style classes that would be a big asset to any new group.
I have no interest in the Sop argument other than they pretend to have all ploughing at heart when this is just a smoke screen. So an alternative is required.
Why would any new organisation want to alienate a section is behond me.
Think about trying to encourage existing matches to be affiliated to the new group, yes we want your vintage stuff but you can stick your world style thank you. I know what I would say if that was the case.
Lots to think about and nothing should be left off the table at this stage, some experienced men still ploughing in the world style classes that would be a big asset to any new group.
Boohoo
Member
- Location
- Newtownabbey
How long would it be before there's a third and then a fourth society formed? There will always be someone who isn't happy with the way that things are being run and claim that there is favouritism towards the top men. Look at Northern Ireland with the Northern Ireland Ploughing Association, the Northern Ireland Vintage Ploughing Association and the Society of Ploughmen Northern Ireland, 3 organisations to choose from and people still aren't happy.
I don`t think anybody means any animosity to individual world style ploughmen but by definition their ultimate goal is the World championships. This may be a step too far far for a new society which is initially trying to cater for the needs of vintage ploughmen. In this respect I think the disenchanted world style ploughmen should initially form their own breakaway group and having secured the ultimate prize seek amalgamation of a new society.
Having only been a member of the SOP for seven years from 2005 to 2012 I have scant knowledge of the history or how National, European and World organisations inter react but it seems that recent posts on here indicate confusion and subterfuge. No surprise there. The biggest problem is that those in power seem to hold the aces and they are all World style protagonists. I don`t think you will get much support from vintage ploughmen for bringing them on board.
- Location
- 200 miles N,NW of New York
I do agree here, and how long will it be, before there is threads on here about the new club not doing it right, and will never keep everyone happy,
however hard they try
in a plus side there will be 2 national ploughing finals each year,
One with ultimate unelected power is one too many. There is no will to change this from within so an alternative has to be found. There will always be those who have a gripe but if they have a say and their concerns are addressed rather than consigned to the trash bin there is a possibility of a more harmonious organisation. The SOP has so many skeletons in their cupboard that they have been force by their own actions to shut up shop in order to cover their tracks. This society can never act properly on behalf of the membership again so a new start is required.
Dealer
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
Hi Bob
I don't see the need to form separate groups welcome the world style and how about a new class (Historic world style to cater for Bonning and KV and other ploughs that have been left behind)
as long as there is no promise that world competition is an option they can all join with that in mind, I don't think for 1 minute the current / recent world style boys would join as they are currently enjoying many trappings via the sop cartel.
embrace all if you want a true alternative offering to sop.
I don't see the need to form separate groups welcome the world style and how about a new class (Historic world style to cater for Bonning and KV and other ploughs that have been left behind)
as long as there is no promise that world competition is an option they can all join with that in mind, I don't think for 1 minute the current / recent world style boys would join as they are currently enjoying many trappings via the sop cartel.
embrace all if you want a true alternative offering to sop.
Ok I take your point but your original three classes are going to end up as ten before much longer. 200 acres will be required and an organisational headache is looming.
Sprayer
Member
- Location
- South Derbyshire
I think before anyone gets to grandiose ideas perhaps it would be better to walk before running. Maybe a national ploughing "club" rather than a society or limited company to start with and see how things progress. Organise a few area matches, get to know people, see if you can organise some blanket insurance for members organising matches and give the members something in return. The year could be rounded off with a national match. No point in antagonising the SOP unnecessarily. If it gets to adventurous it will need a salaried secretary rather than someone doing the job for out of pocket expenses.
Just stop right there. The original post has 2 very pertinent phrases ‘We are all ploughmen’ and also ‘all valid points for discussion’. This is far far from elitist and is democratic. To any fair thinking man it would indicate the need for dialogue before anything is set in stone. I have simply relayed what a lot of ploughmen feel. The final decision on membership will not be mine alone. Do yourself a favour and take a look back at David’s first post on the subject. It is quite clear and concise with regard to who is included in an invitation for membership. David’s words - not mine.
As far as your accusation of trying to do the SOP down then stop right there again. A handful of us who disagreed with the way it was run had the courage of conviction to walk away. End of. All I ever want to see is a fair do for those of us who plough.
Not to put too fine a point on it but whatever your personal differences then get them out of the way and sharpish. By your dialogue you are driving this rapidly toward the scenario that Booho so readily and accurately points out exists in Northern Ireland. You are making a laughing stock of the whole affair. You are making groundless accusations. I would think that there are one or two Doncastrians rolling about the floor laughing at all this falling out before a meeting has even been held.
Dealer
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
Hi Sprayer thousands of national bodies and organisations run by unpaid volunteers, the paid employed staff at sop is just part of the gravy train.
I don't see any harm in reimbursement of expenses - phones postage printing and the like as long as its agreed and properly accounted for.
don see any need for a grand ltd companies - directors or any other fancy titles
yes lots to discuss and ponder that's the beauty of a blank start you can make it go in the direction that the members want it to go. exactly the opposite to what they have at the moment.
I don't see any harm in reimbursement of expenses - phones postage printing and the like as long as its agreed and properly accounted for.
don see any need for a grand ltd companies - directors or any other fancy titles
yes lots to discuss and ponder that's the beauty of a blank start you can make it go in the direction that the members want it to go. exactly the opposite to what they have at the moment.
- Location
- Acton Scott, South Shropshire
My first post this morning was directed to the collective. My second post was a reply to you and I said “some people “ not “you”.
Sorry if it was misinterpreted - not looking for a fight. Just making clear my opinions on what an alternative SOP should be about as an Ex rev ploughman who would be most likely to return as a vintage ploughman if it ever happened. It just occurred to me that it could turn out to be a very hypocritical affair if you start selecting who can join
Ireland is divided and classed as two separate countries. Is having a Border not a clue?[/QUOTE]
That was in response to the Welsh and Scotts forming their own national organisations.As they now sent their own men to the world, many felt there was no place for them at the" English" national, and that they were there was potentially keeping two English ploughmen out of the plough off.The SOP replied that as it was the British national, they had the right to attend, competing for the British championship.What they didnt do, was to put two more places in the plough off, which would have removed the bone of contention.
The world lot have a great influence on the rule book,separate points for straightness( Thats a joke, something is either straight or bent,!) the start from one end rule, style of finish. I expect there are more, if we were to look.
So, at the time was Germany, but they were allowed only one entrant.
That was in response to the Welsh and Scotts forming their own national organisations.As they now sent their own men to the world, many felt there was no place for them at the" English" national, and that they were there was potentially keeping two English ploughmen out of the plough off.The SOP replied that as it was the British national, they had the right to attend, competing for the British championship.What they didnt do, was to put two more places in the plough off, which would have removed the bone of contention.
The world lot have a great influence on the rule book,separate points for straightness( Thats a joke, something is either straight or bent,!) the start from one end rule, style of finish. I expect there are more, if we were to look.