Sweden

[Lowland1]

You are still missing what I have been posting. This is at least the fourth thread which purports to show that Sweden is a paragon in its handling of the virus. I say it is not and some posters want to argue with me. Fair enough, debate is good, but in support of that argument there is a need to show that Sweden is doing better with its infected people than at least a large majority of other countries. To fail to show this results in my contention that it is doing no better than many others, and decidedly worse than some.

I used Portugal as a comparison and example of only one country amongst many which is keeping virus cases alive much better than Sweden. We all know that the deaths numbers numbers are a guide, and not claimed to be 100% accurate. There will be some who died from the virus who were not recorded as having done so and vice versa.

What can be done is to follow the outcome of confirmed cases, and here it is necessary to consider the outcome in relation to other countries, because that determines whether Sweden is as good as some have claimed. A confirmed case will be one that has tested positive – the exception being Belgium which is recording deaths in care homes that are only suspect cases and they then become confirmed cases without testing. Belgium says it is the only country in the world doing this. Apart from this anomaly the average outcome shows your chances of survival in any country if you become infected and recorded as such, which shows how well the country is handling the virus. I have said I would prefer to take my chances in Portugal rather than Sweden. At least one poster said they preferred Sweden.

The only good outcome is survival, and it is accepted some will have lifelong problems, but the alternative is death. The definition of recovered may well vary too, but it does indicate that the patient is still alive. There are lots of countries where the survival rate is considerably higher than Sweden. This shows that up until now these countries are performing better than Sweden. Unfortunately the UK and some other European countries also fare badly in this respect.

I have absolutely nothing against Sweden and my volunteer grocery delivery man is Swedish. We are going as long as possible between home deliveries of foodstuffs (twice so far after more than 7 weeks of self-imposed isolation) and we would survive without him, but the deliveries do make meals more appetising and interesting, and we are extremely grateful to our volunteer. He has told us there have never been any shortages in the shops such as we have been told happened in other countries, so numerous businesses have been operating and many people have been working to keep the shelves stocked. This could be the reason Portugal has seen more cases than Sweden. An alternative brand to our usual was sometimes provided in the first delivery but we have not failed to obtain what we needed.

You cannot know what effect there will be on any country’s economy in a year’s time. Or what will happen with the number of cases in the future. My posts have always been that Sweden is not so far showing that it has handled the virus as well as many other countries, yet I repeat this is at least the fourth thread claiming it is.

You are still missing what I have been posting. This is at least the fourth thread which purports to show that Sweden is a paragon in its handling of the virus. I say it is not and some posters want to argue with me. Fair enough, debate is good, but in support of that argument there is a need to show that Sweden is doing better with its infected people than at least a large majority of other countries. To fail to show this results in my contention that it is doing no better than many others, and decidedly worse than some.

I used Portugal as a comparison and example of only one country amongst many which is keeping virus cases alive much better than Sweden. We all know that the deaths numbers numbers are a guide, and not claimed to be 100% accurate. There will be some who died from the virus who were not recorded as having done so and vice versa.

What can be done is to follow the outcome of confirmed cases, and here it is necessary to consider the outcome in relation to other countries, because that determines whether Sweden is as good as some have claimed. A confirmed case will be one that has tested positive – the exception being Belgium which is recording deaths in care homes that are only suspect cases and they then become confirmed cases without testing. Belgium says it is the only country in the world doing this. Apart from this anomaly the average outcome shows your chances of survival in any country if you become infected and recorded as such, which shows how well the country is handling the virus. I have said I would prefer to take my chances in Portugal rather than Sweden. At least one poster said they preferred Sweden.

The only good outcome is survival, and it is accepted some will have lifelong problems, but the alternative is death. The definition of recovered may well vary too, but it does indicate that the patient is still alive. There are lots of countries where the survival rate is considerably higher than Sweden. This shows that up until now these countries are performing better than Sweden. Unfortunately the UK and some other European countries also fare badly in this respect.

I have absolutely nothing against Sweden and my volunteer grocery delivery man is Swedish. We are going as long as possible between home deliveries of foodstuffs (twice so far after more than 7 weeks of self-imposed isolation) and we would survive without him, but the deliveries do make meals more appetising and interesting, and we are extremely grateful to our volunteer. He has told us there have never been any shortages in the shops such as we have been told happened in other countries, so numerous businesses have been operating and many people have been working to keep the shelves stocked. This could be the reason Portugal has seen more cases than Sweden. An alternative brand to our usual was sometimes provided in the first delivery but we have not failed to obtain what we needed.

You cannot know what effect there will be on any country’s economy in a year’s time. Or what will happen with the number of cases in the future. My posts have always been that Sweden is not so far showing that it has handled the virus as well as many other countries, yet I repeat this is at least the fourth thread claiming it is.

Ok if it's numbers of deaths you are using as a yardstick well done Portugal however if it's the ability to live as close to a normal life as possible in very trying times it's well done Sweden. If you've shut yourself away for seven weeks i am sure you must have great confidence in Portugal but for me I'd want to be somewhere where life is at least showing some semblance of normality.

 

[Old McDonald]

Ok if it's numbers of deaths you are using as a yardstick well done Portugal however if it's the ability to live as close to a normal life as possible in very trying times it's well done Sweden. If you've shut yourself away for seven weeks i am sure you must have great confidence in Portugal but for me I'd want to be somewhere where life is at least showing some semblance of normality.

My last post said drop the comparison between the two countries, and only look at the chances of survival in Sweden compared with the rest of the world if you are unfortunate enough to be infected and diagnosed with it. Sweden has done less well, so far, than many other places, but four times at least threads have posts claiming otherwise.

You are not in either Sweden or Portugal are you? So how do you know how many of the population are "as close to a normal life as possible"? This is basically a rural country and I can see many small parcels, often only a few hundred square yards each, and part of a village from my property. When I see people on their land and tractors, pick ups and business delivery vehicles going about I have a fair idea that a large part of the rest of the country is doing so too.

As I also posted, the fact that there has been no shortage of things on supermarket shelves (according to my Swedish acquaintance, and whom I believe) is a fair indication that numerous non-rural businesses and people are also working. I know my lawyer is, so presumably others are too. My bank must have a reasonable number of staff operating because there has been no delay in numerous on-line banking transactions. What more do you want? A football match between Sporting and Benfica? True a lot of government and other offices are closed, and I am sure life is not normal for many in the cities, but I would be prepared to make a small wager that we could find many people in Sweden for whom it is not normal either. Even you accept that these are "very trying" times.

Life is normal for my wife and I with the exception that someone else is collecting our groceries. Yesterday I sprayed my almonds for shot hole. This land adjoins the highway and whilst there were not many large or international trucks on it, it was Saturday and traffic flow is reduced at week-ends. There was still quite a lot of smaller vehicles. I did not see them all but heard them passing.

I am sure it is the same for my aged widow neighbour across the river. She was transplanting seedlings yesterday into ground her son in law had ploughed and cultivated over the previous few days. Others of her family, who live in Castelo Branco, have also been on their little plots of ground (as normal) in recent times. I have seen other people doing the same thing.

We are self-isolating for two reasons. I am 76 tomorrow so in a bad age position. I also had extensive testing done for a post heart operation check-up and following these saw the doctor on 9th March. He told me I was "not quite" back to normal health and to continue to be careful. What would you have done at my age, given that advice and knowing this virus was spreading quickly?

 

[hoff135]

My last post said drop the comparison between the two countries, and only look at the chances of survival in Sweden compared with the rest of the world if you are unfortunate enough to be infected and diagnosed with it. Sweden has done less well, so far, than many other places, but four times at least threads have posts claiming otherwise.

You are not in either Sweden or Portugal are you? So how do you know how many of the population are "as close to a normal life as possible"? This is basically a rural country and I can see many small parcels, often only a few hundred square yards each, and part of a village from my property. When I see people on their land and tractors, pick ups and business delivery vehicles going about I have a fair idea that a large part of the rest of the country is doing so too.

As I also posted, the fact that there has been no shortage of things on supermarket shelves (according to my Swedish acquaintance, and whom I believe) is a fair indication that numerous non-rural businesses and people are also working. I know my lawyer is, so presumably others are too. My bank must have a reasonable number of staff operating because there has been no delay in numerous on-line banking transactions. What more do you want? A football match between Sporting and Benfica? True a lot of government and other offices are closed, and I am sure life is not normal for many in the cities, but I would be prepared to make a small wager that we could find many people in Sweden for whom it is not normal either. Even you accept that these are "very trying" times.

Life is normal for my wife and I with the exception that someone else is collecting our groceries. Yesterday I sprayed my almonds for shot hole. This land adjoins the highway and whilst there were not many large or international trucks on it, it was Saturday and traffic flow is reduced at week-ends. There was still quite a lot of smaller vehicles. I did not see them all but heard them passing.

I am sure it is the same for my aged widow neighbour across the river. She was transplanting seedlings yesterday into ground her son in law had ploughed and cultivated over the previous few days. Others of her family, who live in Castelo Branco, have also been on their little plots of ground (as normal) in recent times. I have seen other people doing the same thing.

We are self-isolating for two reasons. I am 76 tomorrow so in a bad age position. I also had extensive testing done for a post heart operation check-up and following these saw the doctor on 9th March. He told me I was "not quite" back to normal health and to continue to be careful. What would you have done at my age, given that advice and knowing this virus was spreading quickly?

I think what makes many of us ask questions is the "experts" said sweden was playing a dangerous game.

Life is not normal in sweden, far from it. But the experts predictions so far dont seem to be playing out. There is no exponential graph of swedens coronavirus pandemic. Not yet anyway. Which i think is worthy of paying attention to.

 

[Chopsy Varmint]

You are still missing what I have been posting. This is at least the fourth thread which purports to show that Sweden is a paragon in its handling of the virus. I say it is not and some posters want to argue with me. Fair enough, debate is good, but in support of that argument there is a need to show that Sweden is doing better with its infected people than at least a large majority of other countries. To fail to show this results in my contention that it is doing no better than many others, and decidedly worse than some.

I used Portugal as a comparison and example of only one country amongst many which is keeping virus cases alive much better than Sweden. We all know that the deaths numbers numbers are a guide, and not claimed to be 100% accurate. There will be some who died from the virus who were not recorded as having done so and vice versa.

What can be done is to follow the outcome of confirmed cases, and here it is necessary to consider the outcome in relation to other countries, because that determines whether Sweden is as good as some have claimed. A confirmed case will be one that has tested positive – the exception being Belgium which is recording deaths in care homes that are only suspect cases and they then become confirmed cases without testing. Belgium says it is the only country in the world doing this. Apart from this anomaly the average outcome shows your chances of survival in any country if you become infected and recorded as such, which shows how well the country is handling the virus. I have said I would prefer to take my chances in Portugal rather than Sweden. At least one poster said they preferred Sweden.

The only good outcome is survival, and it is accepted some will have lifelong problems, but the alternative is death. The definition of recovered may well vary too, but it does indicate that the patient is still alive. There are lots of countries where the survival rate is considerably higher than Sweden. This shows that up until now these countries are performing better than Sweden. Unfortunately the UK and some other European countries also fare badly in this respect.

I have absolutely nothing against Sweden and my volunteer grocery delivery man is Swedish. We are going as long as possible between home deliveries of foodstuffs (twice so far after more than 7 weeks of self-imposed isolation) and we would survive without him, but the deliveries do make meals more appetising and interesting, and we are extremely grateful to our volunteer. He has told us there have never been any shortages in the shops such as we have been told happened in other countries, so numerous businesses have been operating and many people have been working to keep the shelves stocked. This could be the reason Portugal has seen more cases than Sweden. An alternative brand to our usual was sometimes provided in the first delivery but we have not failed to obtain what we needed.

You cannot know what effect there will be on any country’s economy in a year’s time. Or what will happen with the number of cases in the future. My posts have always been that Sweden is not so far showing that it has handled the virus as well as many other countries, yet I repeat this is at least the fourth thread claiming it is.

I'm not holding Sweden up as a paragon. What I am saying is it will be interesting to see what will happen when locked-down countries start easing restrictions. My gut feeling is that cases will rise (including in Portugal) whereas Sweden will hold steady over the same time period, with the end result that overall figures will be similar for all countries (assuming the same categories for cases and deaths are used), but that Sweden's economy will be in better shape for the future and with fewer deaths and diseases attributable to the effects of the lockdown(s). Plus they may attain herd immunity before a vaccine is widely available, which can only be a good thing for getting back to some sort of normality.

There's too much of an unknown road to travel before cv19 is done with us and it's impossible to hold up one country above others. However it may turn out to be useful for predicting future pandemic outcomes and developing management protocols now that one country such as Sweden is trying a different approach to novel virus control. I remain to be convinced that across-the-board lockdowns restricting all areas of society will prove to be correct for migitating long-term economic damage and future living standards.

I think you and I are looking at the problem from different perspectives. I am less concerned about personal survival at all costs, and more about the state the country (both socially and economically) will be left in for younger and future generations. Nowt I can do about it though.

 

[Lowland1]

My last post said drop the comparison between the two countries, and only look at the chances of survival in Sweden compared with the rest of the world if you are unfortunate enough to be infected and diagnosed with it. Sweden has done less well, so far, than many other places, but four times at least threads have posts claiming otherwise.

You are not in either Sweden or Portugal are you? So how do you know how many of the population are "as close to a normal life as possible"? This is basically a rural country and I can see many small parcels, often only a few hundred square yards each, and part of a village from my property. When I see people on their land and tractors, pick ups and business delivery vehicles going about I have a fair idea that a large part of the rest of the country is doing so too.

As I also posted, the fact that there has been no shortage of things on supermarket shelves (according to my Swedish acquaintance, and whom I believe) is a fair indication that numerous non-rural businesses and people are also working. I know my lawyer is, so presumably others are too. My bank must have a reasonable number of staff operating because there has been no delay in numerous on-line banking transactions. What more do you want? A football match between Sporting and Benfica? True a lot of government and other offices are closed, and I am sure life is not normal for many in the cities, but I would be prepared to make a small wager that we could find many people in Sweden for whom it is not normal either. Even you accept that these are "very trying" times.

Life is normal for my wife and I with the exception that someone else is collecting our groceries. Yesterday I sprayed my almonds for shot hole. This land adjoins the highway and whilst there were not many large or international trucks on it, it was Saturday and traffic flow is reduced at week-ends. There was still quite a lot of smaller vehicles. I did not see them all but heard them passing.

I am sure it is the same for my aged widow neighbour across the river. She was transplanting seedlings yesterday into ground her son in law had ploughed and cultivated over the previous few days. Others of her family, who live in Castelo Branco, have also been on their little plots of ground (as normal) in recent times. I have seen other people doing the same thing.

We are self-isolating for two reasons. I am 76 tomorrow so in a bad age position. I also had extensive testing done for a post heart operation check-up and following these saw the doctor on 9th March. He told me I was "not quite" back to normal health and to continue to be careful. What would you have done at my age, given that advice and knowing this virus was spreading quickly?

I really am having difficulty understanding the argument here as far as I can gather life for you is pretty normal except for the fact you are isolating from people, because of your health and age.Because you live on a farm in the country all is well. You are doing exactly as you should do. However what if you were a young married couple living in Lisbon or Porto with two or three kids. The kids can't go to school you can't go to work and you don't know if your job will be there when this all over. If you live in Sweden your kids are at school you are going to work and you know at the end of all this your country is well placed to move forward without a horrendous debt burden that its young will be paying off for years. Yes Portugal may end up with fewer deaths but what will be the cost to country of saving those lives.
I am not in Portugal but I have lived there I am not in Sweden though I had a Swedish girlfriend once. And honestly I couldn't care less about Sporting playing Bennfica but I do want to see Liverpool finish the premier league I do want to see the test cricket this year and I want my kids to be able to get on with their lives.

 

[oil barron]

America is pretty much opened up now. Over 30 states removed restrictions on May 1st. Even in the states that still have shelter in place no one is giving a Fuq anymore.
I had to go to the hardware store yesterday as my toilet exploded. It was absolutely rammed full. Only about 30% of people wearing masks. Actually made me feel pretty nervous.

 

[Honest john]

This is at least the fourth thread holding up Sweden as having "got it right". Repeats, repeats. So, I will repeat, repeat for at least the fourth time too:-

Sweden and Portugal have similar populations of over 10million. They are similar too in that there are tracts of virtually uninhabitated areas (Sweden's being larger) and several large centres of population, with the rest being spread around the country.

As of yesterday there were approximately 900 deaths in Portugal and 2200 in Sweden.

Which country got it right????????

We won’t know until the point when we have the population vaccinated.
My guess is the % death rate will be about the same in a year from now.
With Sweden’s economy less damaged.

 

[Muck Spreader]

America is pretty much opened up now. Over 30 states removed restrictions on May 1st. Even in the states that still have shelter in place no one is giving a Fuq anymore.
I had to go to the hardware store yesterday as my toilet exploded. It was absolutely rammed full. Only about 30% of people wearing masks. Actually made me feel pretty nervous. View attachment 875509

More fool them, as the US records it's highest daily death toll.

 

[oil barron]

We won’t know until the point when we have the population vaccinated.
My guess is the % death rate will be about the same in a year from now.
With Sweden’s economy less damaged.

More fool them, as the US records it's highest daily death toll.

on a per capital basis still ahead of France which has also ruined its economy for the next generation

 

[oil barron]

My last post said drop the comparison between the two countries, and only look at the chances of survival in Sweden compared with the rest of the world if you are unfortunate enough to be infected and diagnosed with it. Sweden has done less well, so far, than many other places, but four times at least threads have posts claiming otherwise.

You are not in either Sweden or Portugal are you? So how do you know how many of the population are "as close to a normal life as possible"? This is basically a rural country and I can see many small parcels, often only a few hundred square yards each, and part of a village from my property. When I see people on their land and tractors, pick ups and business delivery vehicles going about I have a fair idea that a large part of the rest of the country is doing so too.

As I also posted, the fact that there has been no shortage of things on supermarket shelves (according to my Swedish acquaintance, and whom I believe) is a fair indication that numerous non-rural businesses and people are also working. I know my lawyer is, so presumably others are too. My bank must have a reasonable number of staff operating because there has been no delay in numerous on-line banking transactions. What more do you want? A football match between Sporting and Benfica? True a lot of government and other offices are closed, and I am sure life is not normal for many in the cities, but I would be prepared to make a small wager that we could find many people in Sweden for whom it is not normal either. Even you accept that these are "very trying" times.

Life is normal for my wife and I with the exception that someone else is collecting our groceries. Yesterday I sprayed my almonds for shot hole. This land adjoins the highway and whilst there were not many large or international trucks on it, it was Saturday and traffic flow is reduced at week-ends. There was still quite a lot of smaller vehicles. I did not see them all but heard them passing.

I am sure it is the same for my aged widow neighbour across the river. She was transplanting seedlings yesterday into ground her son in law had ploughed and cultivated over the previous few days. Others of her family, who live in Castelo Branco, have also been on their little plots of ground (as normal) in recent times. I have seen other people doing the same thing.

We are self-isolating for two reasons. I am 76 tomorrow so in a bad age position. I also had extensive testing done for a post heart operation check-up and following these saw the doctor on 9th March. He told me I was "not quite" back to normal health and to continue to be careful. What would you have done at my age, given that advice and knowing this virus was spreading quickly?

Portugal’s GDP per capita is less than $25k. The young folk all have to go abroad to find work. Was there any economy there to shut down in the first place ? Sweden’s GDP per capita is more than double.