£200000 Suffolk

[Moors Lad]

These Fancy rams get fed up to 7kg of concentrates a day too, how is that at all commercial?

In old money that`s 15.4 lbs - I find it hard to believe a sheep would eat that much without some health problems... maybe that comes when the new owner gets it home.
The pedigree world is a funny old world. Commercial farming and what happens in these "magic circles" seem worlds apart.....
Breed societies just don`t seem to accept that these "fashions" can ultimately totally spoil a breed....

 

[Ysgythan]

Anyway, they won’t recover as terminals until they ban trimming.

 

[Estate fencing.]

People do get very upset about these expensive tups. But it has no relation to the commercial sheep farmer nor does it matter. It’s like a taxi driver complaining how much a new super car is. His not going to own one and it would be right for his job if he did. That my opinion about it anyway.

 

[neilo]

In old money that`s 15.4 lbs - I find it hard to believe a sheep would eat that much without some health problems... maybe that comes when the new owner gets it home.
The pedigree world is a funny old world. Commercial farming and what happens in these "magic circles" seem worlds apart.....
Breed societies just don`t seem to accept that these "fashions" can ultimately totally spoil a breed....

I remember a (now departed) well known pedigree breeder in the Cotswolds proudly telling anyone who’d listen in the local markets, that he’d managed to get his yearling rams up to 14lb of feed a day. That takes some doing, and some time to get them built up to it, but they always did well at the shows. I’ve judged them myself plenty of times, and found it almost impossible not to place them at/near the top. Always correct, flashy, handle well and bigger than most of their competition. You can only judge what’s placed in front of you, not what you know the feeding regime to be. That’s why show rosettes are nothing more than a distraction.

I lost count of how many commercial sheep farmers that retold it to me overthe next few years, all of which were horrified, and had been steered away from that flock by his tale.

 

[neilo]

Anyway, they won’t recover as terminals until they ban trimming.

Trimming’s not hurt the Beltexes reputation has it?

 

[andybk]

People do get very upset about these expensive tups. But it has no relation to the commercial sheep farmer nor does it matter. It’s like a taxi driver complaining how much a new super car is. His not going to own one and it would be right for his job if he did. That my opinion about it anyway.

It does though , because it sends a ripple down through the whole breeding pyramid, being so expensive over a long period of time , means lots of smaller breeders using semen producing lots of female offspring , its how the suffolk got into trouble in the first place , breeders playing games at sales for self promotion and ignoring the wider picture

 

[M-J-G]

People do get very upset about these expensive tups. But it has no relation to the commercial sheep farmer nor does it matter. It’s like a taxi driver complaining how much a new super car is. His not going to own one and it would be right for his job if he did. That my opinion about it anyway.

Good analogy
I breed pure cattle, I don't feed any more concentrate than a store ration and I am interested purely on commercial traits for my breed, what goes on in the "top end" of the breed is of no real relevance to me as its only the rare occasion that one of the animals that trades for bigger money is from a herd that I would consider suitable for my a herd that runs mixed in with crossbred cattle

 

[M-J-G]

Trimming’s not hurt the Beltexes reputation has it?

Reputation for what?

 

[Ysgythan]

Trimming’s not hurt the Beltexes reputation has it?

apples and pears. You’re not going to grasp the commercial market with Suffolk’s if they’re the same old same old. The Beltex’s reputation is despite trimming.

 

[neilo]

Reputation for what?

I was trying not to go there, or @Longlowdog will get upset with me again.

Trimming has only enhanced their reputation for shape though.

 

[Moors Lad]

It does though , because it sends a ripple down through the whole breeding pyramid, being so expensive over a long period of time , means lots of smaller breeders using semen producing lots of female offspring , its how the suffolk got into trouble in the first place , breeders playing games at sales for self promotion and ignoring the wider picture

VERY TRUE !

 

[Fourofakind]

Not to hijack the post but the trimming comments are interesting to me. Would every breed not benefit from not being allowed to trim? Judges are able to judge the animal on its real traits, and buyers can buy (to breed from) animals where they can see everything. The result - breeders breeding from better quality stock and producing better quality animals without "fluffy muscle"...

 

[andybk]

Not to hijack the post but the trimming comments are interesting to me. Would every breed not benefit from not being allowed to trim? Judges are able to judge the animal on its real traits, and buyers can buy (to breed from) animals where they can see everything. The result - breeders breeding from better quality stock and producing better quality animals without "fluffy muscle"...

Always said we should show stock shorn within 4-6 weeks (county/ national shows etc) have seen stock where this has been done , you can see all the fat / faults , Trimming does look nice , but a competent person can make a silk purse with enough cover to trim , but not really what it should be about .

 

[neilo]

Not to hijack the post but the trimming comments are interesting to me. Would every breed not benefit from not being allowed to trim? Judges are able to judge the animal on its real traits, and buyers can buy (to breed from) animals where they can see everything. The result - breeders breeding from better quality stock and producing better quality animals without "fluffy muscle"...

Definitely, but if everyone else in a sale is trimming/fluffing/shaping, yours look like second class citizens if you're the only one that doesn't.

Several people have tried, as have I, to get it stopped within our breed, but when the majority of 'pedigree' breeders are just hobbyists in this country, the majority want to see it continue.
When respected breeders see a ram lamb and are impressed by them, then say they 'can't wait to see him trimmed', you know the jobs fooked.

 

[Bald n Grumpy]

The problem with the majority of high priced pedigree stock is the lack of connection with farmers, they are usually bred and purchased by wannabe farmers who haven't got a clue but have pots of money to spend and are looking for the glory of selling high priced stock by their expensive purchases.
As far as commercial rams go if buyers didn't buy overfed trimmed rams then in time people would stop producing them

 

[andybk]

here is how i buy my rams online , all shorn , all fed the same ,point scored for size , wool etc , scanned weighed same day , all recorded data with index on another tab, will be auctioned soon,
could easily be done here and will be the future in some form with online sales becoming the norm ,

 

[M-J-G]

People do get very upset about these expensive tups. But it has no relation to the commercial sheep farmer nor does it matter. It’s like a taxi driver complaining how much a new super car is. His not going to own one and it would be right for his job if he did. That my opinion about it anyway.

Good analogy
I bred pure cattle, I don't feed any more concentrate than a store ration and focus purely on commercial traits, function and my own personal preferences.

I often laugh at the pedigree breeders who flock to buy semen from the sire of an animal that just topped a sale or a show.
So many of these people have no opinion of their own, and if that animal hadn't sired a "winner" they'd never consider him.

 

[M-J-G]

Not to hijack the post but the trimming comments are interesting to me. Would every breed not benefit from not being allowed to trim? Judges are able to judge the animal on its real traits, and buyers can buy (to breed from) animals where they can see everything. The result - breeders breeding from better quality stock and producing better quality animals without "fluffy muscle"...

Trimming makes little difference IMO, the animal underneath is no better or worse because its trimmed.
If people aren't able to judge an animal and are daft enough to allow trimming influence their opinion, who cares what they think?

 

[Nithsdale]

I often laugh at the pedigree breeders who flock to buy semen from the sire of an animal that just topped a sale or a show.
So many of these people have no opinion of their own, and if that animal hadn't sired a "winner" they'd never consider him.

It's not those breeders which have no option of their own... It's the bottom end breeders who are spending big desperate to climb the pyramid

They couldn't afford the top price ram but aspire to be at the top... So they'll blow their guts on a son of that ram, from a flock who have AI'd to him, to feel like they're part of the big time

 

[M-J-G]

It's not those breeders which have no option of their own... It's the bottom end breeders who are spending big desperate to climb the pyramid

They couldn't afford the top price ram but aspire to be at the top... So they'll blow their guts on a son of that ram, from a flock who have AI'd to him, to feel like they're part of the big time

I don't disagree, but plenty of the bigger (as well as smaller) breeders struggle with a lack of opinion and imagination and spend a lot of their time watching what others are doing.
My opinion is that you'll never be the first if you're following others.