aberfield sheep

[Bob the beef]

Aren't they all commercial Maternals at the end of the day?

Innovis you don't get that option. You can't just buy a cull or a cheap tup which nobody else likes - regardless of your intentions of use with that tup.
Their Terminals are priced the same as the Maternals starting price is around £600 IIRC - and it's a like it or lump it situation... and if 2 people put their hand up, it becomes an auction

Given how many went unsold at Carlisle the 2 times I went, I'd be very interested to know how many of these expensive tups end up as dog food at the end of the year because they're left with them

All Innovis sales are a standard auction now. Wasn’t a fan of the previous way of selling at all. Glad they have seen the light.

Having used nothing but Innovis tups, maternal and terminal, for the last 6 years, I have had an almost entirely positive experience . Only downside I have had was an Abermax tup that left overly bare lambs at birth. Grew into good sheep but not woolly enough for this part of the world

 

[CopperBeech]

Almost all maternal tups used here. We do run some Charmoise sweepers just to give a few x bred lambs for a butcher job and to show folk buying Charmoise tups. The money for us is in breeding stock and volume of lambs. I sell dead weight and finish everything so a maternal whether that will hit 20kg and doesn’t take much messing with is fine. If the ewe can give me a pair of 35kg lambs at weaning, that’s her making money, two ewe lambs and we are laughing. The extra premium on the terminal lambs for me doesn’t really outweigh the lost ewe lambs and potential extra costs. Just what works here.

Edited to add - most I’ve spent on a maternal tup was £2800, which is a lot. I’d be happier paying £1500 max, but if you want a particular animal you have to pay the price it’s being sold at on the day.

 

[Ysgythan]

I would be wary about using a Texel on gimmers (yearlings), commercial or not. I have used Hampshires on all my commercial ewes and found them pretty easy lambing but they're not for everyone. Have used a Beltex/Texel this time, with decent lambing ease so far. Beltex or Char for first timers? NZ Suffolk?

Depends on the gimmers. We implant pure Texel embryos into Texel x gimmers.

 

[Bill dog]

All Innovis sales are a standard auction now. Wasn’t a fan of the previous way of selling at all. Glad they have seen the light.

Having used nothing but Innovis tups, maternal and terminal, for the last 6 years, I have had an almost entirely positive experience . Only downside I have had was an Abermax tup that left overly bare lambs at birth. Grew into good sheep but not woolly enough for this part of the world

I found the same with my attempt at an abermax yrs ago. Way too bare for life in Ayrshire . He was expensive dog food after 1 yr’s use!
But as eluded too on here, if you have decent maternal tups, are terminals needed at all ?

 

[Al R]

How much of a reduction of income/profit do people think they would suffer if they went to all maternal rams instead of meat sires?

In the past week after having a few singles having trouble lambing, I'm starting to doubt it would make any difference by the end of the year once my time, loss of a lamb etc are taken into account.

The loss of a single isn’t as bad as when twins are coming out to big. I’m phasing my texelX ewes out, now down to 250 although 50+ will be sold as breeders as they don’t suit my system. When 80% of the losses are coming from 15% of the flock, most of the ewes that have got to be caught and brought in are in those 15% and when their are almost as many singles as twins in a twin lambing field it’s time to change. You can’t get any profit off a lamb which dies at birth. The fat lamb may be worth £5-10 more than a maternal type but when the maternal type is doing all of the work herself it’s a no brainier. I’ve got multiple fields of checked once a day maternal breeds here, fields of twins on 48-93, another is 59-119, with no lambs pulled in either. My dad has the easier lambing breeds on his rounds and he phoned me saying he’d just pulled his first lamb. He had 451 lambs on his round over a few weeks before he even had to pull a lamb

 

[d-wales]

The loss of a single isn’t as bad as when twins are coming out to big. I’m phasing my texelX ewes out, now down to 250 although 50+ will be sold as breeders as they don’t suit my system. When 80% of the losses are coming from 15% of the flock, most of the ewes that have got to be caught and brought in are in those 15% and when their are almost as many singles as twins in a twin lambing field it’s time to change. You can’t get any profit off a lamb which dies at birth. The fat lamb may be worth £5-10 more than a maternal type but when the maternal type is doing all of the work herself it’s a no brainier. I’ve got multiple fields of checked once a day maternal breeds here, fields of twins on 48-93, another is 59-119, with no lambs pulled in either. My dad has the easier lambing breeds on his rounds and he phoned me saying he’d just pulled his first lamb. He had 451 lambs on his round over a few weeks before he even had to pull a lamb

Sounds idea.

What breed you aiming on running in the future?

 

[Al R]

Sounds idea.

What breed you aiming on running in the future?

Exlana types basically. All homebred ewes, only rams brought in. Currently at 550/600 of them so a few more years of hassle yet

 

[Yale]

The loss of a single isn’t as bad as when twins are coming out to big. I’m phasing my texelX ewes out, now down to 250 although 50+ will be sold as breeders as they don’t suit my system. When 80% of the losses are coming from 15% of the flock, most of the ewes that have got to be caught and brought in are in those 15% and when their are almost as many singles as twins in a twin lambing field it’s time to change. You can’t get any profit off a lamb which dies at birth. The fat lamb may be worth £5-10 more than a maternal type but when the maternal type is doing all of the work herself it’s a no brainier. I’ve got multiple fields of checked once a day maternal breeds here, fields of twins on 48-93, another is 59-119, with no lambs pulled in either. My dad has the easier lambing breeds on his rounds and he phoned me saying he’d just pulled his first lamb. He had 451 lambs on his round over a few weeks before he even had to pull a lamb

Same here, texels are being eradicated and any remaining Aberfield also which are now well full mouth.

Going NZ composite Highlander and Easydams from a native.Really like the Highlander cross as workhorse sheep, Charolais over everything going terminal.

 

[Kingcustard]

Rightly or wrongly I attach far less importance to terminal rams. Only ever bought aged ones to use a kill.

First maternal ram I bought was £600 performance recorded single myomax easycare from @Woolless. Followed it up with an £800 version the next year. But they were for my stud program.

"Commercial" maternals have been £150-400.

How big a difference are you seeing with the Myomax lambs over lambs from a plain bred EC tup.

Do the lambs look a lot better, or less plain.

Do they lamb just as easily.

I am about to start lambing the 1 crops and above to the NZ Suffolks and having my usual panic about stuck lambs. Only ever lambed gimmers to the EC tups so probably would get bigger better lambs out of them pure with a few less problems if I used them over the older ewes.

This year is decision time for which way I go with the EC flock. The NZ Suffolks definitely give bigger lambs that are more saleable earlier but I am not wanting to start running into problems at lambing time.

I have had a few out of my texel Tups but they were at the tail end and didn't look that fancy.

 

[unlacedgecko]

How big a difference are you seeing with the Myomax lambs over lambs from a plain bred EC tup.

Do the lambs look a lot better, or less plain.

Do they lamb just as easily.

I am about to start lambing the 1 crops and above to the NZ Suffolks and having my usual panic about stuck lambs. Only ever lambed gimmers to the EC tups so probably would get bigger better lambs out of them pure with a few less problems if I used them over the older ewes.

This year is decision time for which way I go with the EC flock. The NZ Suffolks definitely give bigger lambs that are more saleable earlier but I am not wanting to start running into problems at lambing time.

I have had a few out of my texel Tups but they were at the tail end and didn't look that fancy.

Some and some. Not noticed a difference in lambing ease.

 

[neilo]

How big a difference are you seeing with the Myomax lambs over lambs from a plain bred EC tup.

Do the lambs look a lot better, or less plain.

Do they lamb just as easily.

I am about to start lambing the 1 crops and above to the NZ Suffolks and having my usual panic about stuck lambs. Only ever lambed gimmers to the EC tups so probably would get bigger better lambs out of them pure with a few less problems if I used them over the older ewes.

This year is decision time for which way I go with the EC flock. The NZ Suffolks definitely give bigger lambs that are more saleable earlier but I am not wanting to start running into problems at lambing time.

I have had a few out of my texel Tups but they were at the tail end and didn't look that fancy.

The myostatin gene basically restricts muscle growth. Myomax (or T+ from other labs) is a test for a mutation of that gene that means it isn’t restricted, so you get more lean muscle growth in the hindquarter (not the loin).
Sheep from rams carrying that gene will grow more hindquarter, but they aren’t born with more fleshing, so it will make no difference to lambing ease.
However, I suppose if the ewes are double carriers, the better hindquarter fleshing might make for less room?
Most of my Highlanders will be double carriers (almost all sires have been double carriers since 2008), but they lamb easily enough.

 

[Kingcustard]

So would you say it is worth the extra for a tup with it

 

[neilo]

So would you say it is worth the extra for a tup with it

As above, almost all of my maternal stock rams have been double carriers since I started with the Highlanders in 2008, and most of my Charollais stock rams have been too.

It’s a free ride imo, so yes. It doesn’t make a cr*p sheep good though, just slightly less cr*p. I’d consider recording and ebvs more important personally.

 

[unlacedgecko]

It’s a free ride imo, so yes. It doesn’t make a cr*p sheep good though, just slightly less cr*p. I’d consider recording and ebvs more important personally.

That's what I'm aiming to do. Make my shite Shetlands slightly less shite.

 

[Kingcustard]

After this years lambing I have redefined what a shite sheep is......

Anything that is dead is shite.... anything that is alive and walking in 4 legs unassisted is good.... conformation and live weight gain will have to wait another year.

 

[bobajob]

I'm no expert but the blue Leicester /texel Cross fits in well with a cheviot. The lambs wouldn't stand still long enough for a picture.!

I take Innovis sales pitch at their sales with a pinch of salt. (Yes they are expensive and they could do with sorting out the mastitis issues coming from the texel side)
How the tups look still has a big bearing at sales.
I wouldn't call them easycare/ no care, stuck singles is the worst thing but that is probably down to my management and they are on too good grass.