Another new beef herd thread

[Hay Farmer]

Cattle advice needed please - sorry for all the questions, but it’s a bit difficult to chat to my neighbours for advice at the moment.

I’m considering buying a few native breed cows / heifers, possibly polled and certainly docile. They will live outside all year round, on permanent pasture rotationally grazed with sheep, on cover crops and on herbal leys. It will be a very low input system and the beef would be sold direct. Plan to end up with a small closed herd turning excess grass and cover crops into meat with minimal cost and intervention from me.

My local breed is Hereford, so was thinking of tradition Herefords but also like the look of White Park, Longhorns, and some of the ancient cattle of Wales. Welsh black also look nice to my untrained eye. I imagine ease of handling, and suitability for a low input system would be the most important factors. Any thoughts?

I don’t want to spend a much on this, but what sort of handling setup do I need for safe Tb testing etc? You can buy an old cattle crush on ebay for £75 or spend 150 times that. What would be a sensible small setup to cope with a few cows.

Footpaths, any issues with these? One of the PP fields has one running through it.


Electric fencing - the arable fields don’t have complete fencing. Can you sensibly keep cattle behind just an electric fence?

Buy heifers or cows with calves?

Buy / hire a bull or ai?

Anything else I should know as a beginner. I’m not interested in the more commercial breeds and I intend to sell the beef direct.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Woolless]

I would also be interested in hearing folks' thoughts on a essentials for a small-scale handling system and what class of stock to buy in initially.

 

[spin cycle]

i don't know much about much but those cows/calves at foot for sale by @ajcc look a bargain to me...be a good start IMO

 

[delilah]

https://www.britishwhitecattle.co.uk/

 

[egbert]

Nothing agin Herefords, although I'm never sure what they're meant to look like now, and I'd be cautious youngstock run to fat if not watched.
Red Angus might do your job, although attitude might be an issue, ditto Welsh Blacks.
Longhorns are lovely biddable old duffers, and very self reliant, but the antlers are hard to get round.
They have (and this is all just one tw$ts opinion) suffered from 'smallholderitis', although that;s improved again the last decade or two as numbers recovered.

Your answer...South Devons.
There are plenty of polled lines.
Temperament is 2nd to none. (with your leccy fences etc, footpath and maybe not the best handling system)

Loads of genes about, so you won't have to concentrate too hard sourcing a bull every third year.
Youngstock will grow at whatever rate you feed em to, making very large beasts if you run them on/feed em harder.

You could travel into the westcountry and buy females without trying too hard.
There are still loads of herds run commercially in and around Dartmoor, and south and West Devon, and into Cornwall.

The only downside is calving, should you keep them too well.

Bulls tend to being easily handled.
Beef is very good, although I eat a lot of Galloway, so it's no good asking me.

 

[Werzle]

Cattle advice needed please - sorry for all the questions, but it’s a bit difficult to chat to my neighbours for advice at the moment.

I’m considering buying a few native breed cows / heifers, possibly polled and certainly docile. They will live outside all year round, on permanent pasture rotationally grazed with sheep, on cover crops and on herbal leys. It will be a very low input system and the beef would be sold direct. Plan to end up with a small closed herd turning excess grass and cover crops into meat with minimal cost and intervention from me.

My local breed is Hereford, so was thinking of tradition Herefords but also like the look of White Park, Longhorns, and some of the ancient cattle of Wales. Welsh black also look nice to my untrained eye. I imagine ease of handling, and suitability for a low input system would be the most important factors. Any thoughts?

I don’t want to spend a much on this, but what sort of handling setup do I need for safe Tb testing etc? You can buy an old cattle crush on ebay for £75 or spend 150 times that. What would be a sensible small setup to cope with a few cows.

Footpaths, any issues with these? One of the PP fields has one running through it.


Electric fencing - the arable fields don’t have complete fencing. Can you sensibly keep cattle behind just an electric fence?

Buy heifers or cows with calves?

Buy / hire a bull or ai?

Anything else I should know as a beginner. I’m not interested in the more commercial breeds and I intend to sell the beef direct.

Many thanks in advance.

Decent Second hand crush will be about £1000 and half a dozen cattle hurdles will be £90-100 each. They should be fine for doing a few. Plenty of docile hfd bulls about £1000-1500, few hfd or black hfdxbulling hfrs ££750-800/each. Cows and calfs will be dear and hard to find with covid19 restrictions. Wooden posts( £3 ) every 25-30mtres with two strands of electic wire will not cost the earth or take much putting up. Electric fencer is about £120 plus a car battery £70.

 

[Hay Farmer]

Thanks all, any opinions on White Parks? What’s their temperament like?

 

[Agrivator]

Why not start slowly by buying some traditional pure or crossbred store (ideally) heifers. See how a box system goes, and possibly identify one or two heifers suitable for future cows.

A good 2nd hand crush (£1000) and 5 hurdles (£750) at the exit of a small cattle shed would do as an initial handling system, and all would be saleable if you change direction.

 

[Anymulewilldo]

Thanks all, any opinions on White Parks? What’s their temperament like?

What I've had too do with them (the neighbours) temperamental as buggery. Not a cow I'd get excited about.

I could get lynched for what I'm about too say...

Grandad decided that when I took over he was going to keep some Longhorns, he'd always wanted some. Bought some outfits, older cows all with heifers. Put them too my limi bull and we had some right calves off them. Finished and away with the others pretty well. Docile to the point of bloody infuriating. If one decides to stand in the door too the crush and go no further she won't. Outwintered no worries.
BUT, after the first winter I cheese wired all the cows horns off, did the heifers too and all the calves were disbudded at tagging, same as the main herd. It ruins the aesthetic and the point of having Longhorns is too look nice! Grandad went mental as I did it while he was on holiday. But after a couple of months he did admit how much easier and safer they were too work with. Ours had a tendency towards going sloppy in the bags as they got older though and that's the main culling reason. If I was in your shoes I'd go shorthorned Longhorn, nice easy cows.
As said before, spend a bit on your crush. It's the most vital bit of kit you need for cattle wrangling. £1k plus the hurdles is about right.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Beef short horn. Some of the best beef I've ever eaten.

 

[Hfd Cattle]

Beef short horn. Some of the best beef I've ever eaten.

And very easy to handle , if you get docile Herefords you will forever be frustrated trying to move the buggers around, particularly in a handling system . We have a couple of BS cows and White Park ,not by choice particularly but because they were reasonable money , they are easy trouble free cows .

 

[brigadoon]

I would also be interested in hearing folks' thoughts on a essentials for a small-scale handling system and what class of stock to buy in initially.

We have gone through this cycle, we started with some small cattle and an inherited crush - old style with gate hinged on one side and a half height door.

I realised that the crush was reaching the end of its life so took it to a local guy and got him to make me a new frame and sheet the bottom since we had had a couple of scares with feet through the horizontal bars.

We also found that if we left the neck trap open the fitter / flightier cattle would try to jump and some would succeed in getting a front leg through which was not too handy. A couple went down after being caught by the neck and started to choke on the halfdoor.

We have since bought a used, but relatively new crush of a modern design which (just) takes everything from the whitebred bull to the dexter calves (a couple of pallets in the side are handy here since some of the little so and sos can turn around).

We also picked up some cattle hurdles secondhand and have a few spare gates, and a calving hurdle - which will suffice for most things if a little slow and tedious, there is nothing wrong with binder twine and rachet straps if used properly.

The essentials are that it is fit for purpose and safe for all parties

 

[tinsheet]

Limmys, apparently there British now so therefore native.

apologies for adding nothing constructive to this thread.

 

[JP1]

Before breed, please address a couple of other points

Are your fields in a ring fence? If so I would recommend a permanent ring fence no matter what breed

If you are breeding, never ever ever be tempted to buy anything without health pre-testing and quarantine on your farm on entry

You can buy a strong enough crush like a Tubar one for not a massive amount. You'll need to check it's not too rotten. You will however regret it and then go out and spend that money again plus some to get a decent crush that has all the functionality you really need. Will it be in one place (your yard) or will you need to move it. If the former you could make a permanent timber or tube race with a Morris head yoke at the front and have removable panel for access to teats for latching on calves or whatever. My own recommendation would be to get a crush with manual width adjustment and opening side doors from the start and if possible a vet box add on behind and a rump bar for safe control. It will last 50 years and will never break or be regretted and will save you hassle from the get go. Your safety, your family's and the vet's is paramount

IAE and others offer a portable handling system for about £1200 plus VAT with tapered sized gates, hoops and hurdles. You will never realise how many times you need them until you carry them (they are heavy) or don't have them every time you need to load from the corner of a field

Whatever cows you choose, once a fortnight call them to you with a few suckler rolls or to a fresh field of grass. You can never underestimate the ability of a greedy lead cow to help you move or corral stock. Never.

After that I'd say visit a few herds of various breeds after lockdown and pick something that you like the look of. South Devons sounded a good suggestion, maybe look at Lincoln Reds or Ruby Red Devons or Sussex too. Do you really want natives? I'm asking as I've always felt my neighbour's first cross Simmental x South Devons alway look like a decent cow and you could cross with any terminal sire with a cow of that frame and milkiness.

Of course I follow none of that breed advice myself and posted the earlier points as I've got the T-shirt. I keep Galloways myself and always think the outlyers look better.

 

[JP1]

Limmys, apparently there British now so therefore native.

apologies for adding nothing constructive to this thread.

The OP has no complete boundary fences

 

[Woolless]

We have gone through this cycle, we started with some small cattle and an inherited crush - old style with gate hinged on one side and a half height door.

I realised that the crush was reaching the end of its life so took it to a local guy and got him to make me a new frame and sheet the bottom since we had had a couple of scares with feet through the horizontal bars.

We also found that if we left the neck trap open the fitter / flightier cattle would try to jump and some would succeed in getting a front leg through which was not too handy. A couple went down after being caught by the neck and started to choke on the halfdoor.

We have since bought a used, but relatively new crush of a modern design which (just) takes everything from the whitebred bull to the dexter calves (a couple of pallets in the side are handy here since some of the little so and sos can turn around).

We also picked up some cattle hurdles secondhand and have a few spare gates, and a calving hurdle - which will suffice for most things if a little slow and tedious, there is nothing wrong with binder twine and rachet straps if used properly.

The essentials are that it is fit for purpose and safe for all parties

Got away with bolusing my three bucket-fed (now bulling) heifers between two gates this morning but if I buy a few more cows might have to upgrade!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

And very easy to handle , if you get docile Herefords you will forever be frustrated trying to move the buggers around, particularly in a handling system . We have a couple of BS cows and White Park ,not by choice particularly but because they were reasonable money , they are easy trouble free cows .

+5. We run halfbred BSH and literally have to move them with my shoulder if I want to be where they are standing. Perfect for us.

 

[Hay Farmer]

Limmys, apparently there British now so therefore native.

apologies for adding nothing constructive to this thread.

Cheers, don’t know much about cattle, but know that I don’t want them!

 

[Hay Farmer]

Before breed, please address a couple of other points

Are your fields in a ring fence? If so I would recommend a permanent ring fence no matter what breed

If you are breeding, never ever ever be tempted to buy anything without health pre-testing and quarantine on your farm on entry

You can buy a strong enough crush like a Tubar one for not a massive amount. You'll need to check it's not too rotten. You will however regret it and then go out and spend that money again plus some to get a decent crush that has all the functionality you really need. Will it be in one place (your yard) or will you need to move it. If the former you could make a permanent timber or tube race with a Morris head yoke at the front and have removable panel for access to teats for latching on calves or whatever. My own recommendation would be to get a crush with manual width adjustment and opening side doors from the start and if possible a vet box add on behind and a rump bar for safe control. It will last 50 years and will never break or be regretted and will save you hassle from the get go. Your safety, your family's and the vet's is paramount

IAE and others offer a portable handling system for about £1200 plus VAT with tapered sized gates, hoops and hurdles. You will never realise how many times you need them until you carry them (they are heavy) or don't have them every time you need to load from the corner of a field

Whatever cows you choose, once a fortnight call them to you with a few suckler rolls or to a fresh field of grass. You can never underestimate the ability of a greedy lead cow to help you move or corral stock. Never.

After that I'd say visit a few herds of various breeds after lockdown and pick something that you like the look of. South Devons sounded a good suggestion, maybe look at Lincoln Reds or Ruby Red Devons or Sussex too. Do you really want natives? I'm asking as I've always felt my neighbour's first cross Simmental x South Devons alway look like a decent cow and you could cross with any terminal sire with a cow of that frame and milkiness.

Of course I follow none of that breed advice myself and posted the earlier points as I've got the T-shirt. I keep Galloways myself and always think the outlyers look better.

Good advice, thanks.

 

[The Grinch]

Strange how we all find different breeds of cattle. Got some hereford cows the majority of them are complete b#stards to move around they will go through you rather than be driven, getting in crush they just keep going backwards we think they might have a bit of holstein in them but are not a pleasure to handle. Got some Beef shorthorn calves (ai straws we had on some cows that were struggling to get in calf) they are nasty b#stards too, will kick out at any time without any warning. Whereas we have black limmy cows (out of dairy cows) and British blue and limmy heifers (homegrown)which are a complete joy to work with. 3 guesses where the herefords and shorthorns are going !