Churches and farming

[Daniel]

The leadership has been absolutely hopeless during Covid.

I think the clergy on the ground have done what they can in trying times, certainly our Vicar and his team have, but the Bishops and the army of bureaucrats (it isn't just agriculture that suffers from endless hangers on stealing a living) have been absolutely hopeless.

Douglas Murray (an atheist) nails them as well as anyone: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/this-could-have-been-a-great-opportunity-for-the-church

 

[borderterribles]

When on holiday the OH likes to visit churches, not so much a religious thing more to soak up the architecture and local history. Called at Mildenhall on the way home yesterday to tick another one off the list. Stood in the beautifully cool nave, staring up at the carved wooden angels, I found myself meditating thus:
1) Churches are uniquely placed in their community to withstand a more extreme climate, notably heat and wind.
2) Many of our churches were built on the back of the toil of farmers.
3) Churches have a pressing need to find ways to be more relevant to an increasingly secular world.
4) The high street shop is knackered. Landlords will use corona as the final straw to turn shops in to houses (which many were originally anyway).
5) Millions of commuters are now ex commuters. Working from home will be the new normal for many, bringing a reversal in the long term trend of villages being dead in the daytime.

Is the time right for churches to host regular food markets ? Does anyone on here live where this happens ? Could anyone who has an involvement in The Church and thinks this has mileage, have a word upstairs, as it were.

One of the Farmers Markets that we sell our produce at is held in the Church in Cleobury Mortimer. I agree that is a good idea to utilise a fine old building more, but to be honest, it doesn't lend itself very well to the purpose!

 

[honeyend]

The last village I lived in a had four churchs/chapels, and when we moved there five pubs. Churches are funny things, there is definitely a class system. Posh people, or the people who think they are the movers and shakers in the village go to the parish church, the Daily Mail readers go to the Methodist, and the one you never see and bordering on Armish, go to the Particular Baptist. The Particular Baptist chapel, is modern and looks like Fort Knox, and from the outside looks as welcoming as the crem, and you have to dress like you're going to a funeral it seems to attend.
The Methodists seem to be the on the ball. The village Methodist church took out the pews, put in toilets, and a kitchen and split the main area off, so they hold evening classes, fundraising events, social gathering, and use the green spaces around it for village inclusive events. The big Methodist church in town, took out the pews, added a floor, it has a shop, cafe, drop in centre and its open every market day for cheap food.
The C of E churches seem to be stuck in the past, they want your money, but they want the 'right' sort of people to attend, it's all barn dances, suppers, and someone it the posh manor house holding an event. I trot along to most things but I would rather spend my £'s on something that supports the whole village, not just a select few.
In theory its an excellent idea using church building, especially the churchyards, for other things, but I think there would be a lot of resistance. The C of E is more like a social club for the elderly, and they do not like change. Your local church has to raise its own funds to put in a loo, getting people, some of which do not have a lot of money to fund it, when the C of E hold huge investments, and businesses, just seems to me bonkers

 

[Wolds Beef]

Our church is in a small village at the southern end of the Lincolnshire Wolds, built of sandstone and slate roof, and a lead roof to one side. We had the lead nicked between 5 and 10 years ago and after a fight we got it replaced with steel, the church has a Harvest supper every year to raise money for ourselves and charities. We used to hold this in a farm barn that had been converted to an 'entertainment area' when he realised it was going to cost a fortune to marry his 3 daughters!! This old barn became to dirty to use as the farmer had passed on and his wife was very elderly. We turned to taking out some pews and using the church. So this thread caught my eye.
WB

 

[Princess Pooper]

My local church is simply unsustainable. Total expenditure on the bare legal minimum of insurance is many times income. Yes it's pretty. There are many who "love the building" but none actually put their hands in their pockets to repair it. I am treasurer by family tradition, but there is scent treasure left.

The rise of the happy clappies is ace. They meet in warm buildings. They are, in stark contrast to the attenders of the cofe, young happy and vibrant. As a member of an obscure religious sect, it's not a case of moving with the times. More that the association between faith and some or other building needs severing. In response to the Methodist situation if a chapel isn't viable they just shut it. Easy as that. My elderly neighbour left all his dosh to the Methodists. The local chapel was shut within months of his death. Sigh. They don't mess about.

Combined insurance for the right group cofe churches here is about £8k which is about equal to what's taken in collection. All could drive the four miles to the church in the centre. Seven grand less insurance. Building maintenance stops active "churching".

Exactly the same here, I am treasurer of a small church in Leicestershire and the insurance is our biggest cost. We are still struggling to get a new roof following metal theft. One of the problems is I just don't have the time to plough through all the grant applications. Once we have a roof then we are working towards taking pews out, getting a loo and kitchen for community use (no village hall) as well as maintaining worship.

 

[delilah]

The old churches are beautiful buildings and costly to maintain and without regular income the parishes cant afford the up keep
So come on folks throw a few quid in the plate and attend the odd service because you cant have it every way .

If a weekly food market had a dozen stalls each paying £10 pitch fee that's £6k/yr in the coffers.

One of the Farmers Markets that we sell our produce at is held in the Church in Cleobury Mortimer. I agree that is a good idea to utilise a fine old building more, but to be honest, it doesn't lend itself very well to the purpose!

What are the main barriers, the pews ? Vehicle access ? How does it compare to other markets, do you think there is any resistance by traditionalists to shopping there as it's a church ?

 

[essexpete]

If the Bishops of the C of E had been in charge of food supply during Covid, we'd all have starved. Their handling of an existential crisis (or what looked like one in the early stages) has been abysmal.

As perhaps have many religious organisations and beyond the covid crisis.

 

[TheTallGuy]

A pragmatic view on their part, I think it unlikely that Muslim migrants would feel obliged to treat a Christian church with the respect it deserves.

Every Muslim I have had dealings with has been very respectful towards those of other religions. I recall reading a while back that a mosque offered free use of its worship space to a congregation who's church building was damaged by fire or something. If anything, being of a religious bent means that Muslim people are more likely to be respectful than a large portion of our own population.

 

[essexpete]

Ha. Our building is warm enough. Quite simply, cofe has a "can't do" attitude. My village church is "Norman" but actually had been extensively altered, expanded, reduced, redecorated over the years at the expense of the local lord. Then, blam, grade 1 listing and transfer to the church estate / requirements for faculties lock it in a time warp. There is no way you could dare alter anything.

I'll illuminate the thinking:

About twelve years ago, just before my son's christening, some "folk" stole the lead from the roof. Ah, says the church, PCC needs to sort that out as it's "your roof". Thieves left s little of the lead so we suggested we could melt it into medallions and sell to raise funds. "no", said the bosses . That's our lead. You can't do nothing with it. Fine, we'll replace it with a different material so they won't nick it. Nope, we won't give a faculty for anything but lead. Result - "temporary" tin roof has been there 12 years. Recent quinquennial report would say we need to put aside between 12 and 20k a year for repairs. Last year total "profit" was break even. And that was lucky. I'd expect a two grand loss per year.

You can't make it up. It's managed decline. Meanwhile the clappies run creches, food banks, homeless shelters, and now in Lincoln they do mental health support.

Quite pathetic and similar to other top heavy jobsworth we need to justify our existence organisations.

 

[GeorgeC1]

In my part of london most of the old churches are dead pretty much, only really old people use my nearby churches

 

[Highland Mule]

In my part of london most of the old churches are dead pretty much, only really old people use my nearby churches

St Helen's Bishopgate has a pretty young congregation, and (being right below The Shard) is convenient for travel.

 

[teslacoils]

Friends house at Euston, and Hampstead meeting are pretty much packed with a wife range of ages....and it's not just because the cafe is so ace. Urban churches have larger population concentration to sustain them; historical legacies, and potential for alternative use that rural churches don't.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I think the clergy on the ground have done what they can in trying times, certainly our Vicar and his team have, but the Bishops and the army of bureaucrats (it isn't just agriculture that suffers from endless hangers on stealing a living) have been absolutely hopeless.

Douglas Murray (an atheist) nails them as well as anyone: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/this-could-have-been-a-great-opportunity-for-the-church

I like Douglas Murray. He does scare me a bit sometimes though..

 

[som farmer]

policy by various parliaments, has sought to 'down play' the importance of the church, probably not a good move, in many other countries, religion plays an important part of society.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Friends house at Euston, and Hampstead meeting are pretty much packed with a wife range of ages....and it's not just because the cafe is so ace. Urban churches have larger population concentration to sustain them; historical legacies, and potential for alternative use that rural churches don't.

What obscure religious sect are you a member of? Quakers?

 

[teslacoils]

What obscure religious sect are you a member of? Quakers?

Yup. Disappointing that I can't market my oats as Quaker Oats for a premium. Sigh.

 

[Hilly]

The thing that gets me is they built all those magnificent buildings off the back of folk who lived in hovels

And money is the root of all
Evil but can you drop some on the plate on the way out .

 

[SilliamWhale]

Yup. Disappointing that I can't market my oats as Quaker Oats for a premium. Sigh.

Is it true that you all sit around in a circle in silence and wait until somebody says something interesting Or did Sheila Hancock make it up?

 

[Hilly]

The situation you describe is much the same across the county. The change for us in recent years is that “incomers” and “professionals” have taken over the PCC. These are folk on big pensions well used to spending other people’s money but not their own. They have no practical skills or ability so what financial reserves that were left were soon blown “ getting people in” with all the right elf’n and safety where once we would throw a ladder up the side and help the local builder make things good or fell dangerous trees ourselves and tidy them up for the firewood. Now they put things out to tender and get royally done over with very little to show for it. We have had all sorts of expensive surveys and reports commissioned just to state the obvious.
I really can’t see how I can help them at all. They have a mistrust of anything agricultural anyway and won’t listen to any advice. Given it up as a bad job and just mind my own business now. Still believe in God but not in the C of E. It’s a completely lost cause IMO.

Questions , who let the so called incomes take over ? And why ?

 

[TheTallGuy]

And money is the root of all
Evil but can you drop some on the plate on the way out .

Get it right... 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil"