Differences between soft and hard wheats moisture readings

[Flat 10]

Anyone take into account the difference between 'soft' and 'hard' wheats when moisture testing wheat? If you read the manual (i know!!) then a lishman protimeter suggests that 'hard' wheat values are as much at 0.5-0.7% above the soft readings installed in the machine. I wondered now that the lines between hard and soft are so blurred (rejections for softs that are too hard etc) whether this distinction was meaningless. @Lodekka any difference between the two sorts on a marconi?
@crazy_bull any insights? Would ideally not cut some wheat that might be wetter than i thought Thanks

 

[PSQ]

What kind of man reads a manual?

 

[Lodekka]

Anyone take into account the difference between 'soft' and 'hard' wheats when moisture testing wheat? If you read the manual (i know!!) then a lishman protimeter suggests that 'hard' wheat values are as much at 0.5-0.7% above the soft readings installed in the machine. I wondered now that the lines between hard and soft are so blurred (rejections for softs that are too hard etc) whether this distinction was meaningless. @Lodekka any difference between the two sorts on a marconi?
@crazy_bull any insights? Would ideally not cut some wheat that might be wetter than i thought Thanks

I can only speak from experience of Marconi meters and would always recommend an agronomist advice.

Just for clarity ( as far as I understand it), the original Marconi standard was the ‘Wheat Act’ pre 1980, when the EU ‘harmonised’ ISO712 standard was introduced, the difference was 0.7% between the readings.

More modern strains of wheat known as Hard or Soft or Bearded can show the same 0.7% differences.
Therefore the two scales which Marconi used ( based on original NIAE tests) may be used to allow direct readings of m/c for each of the Wheat varieties.

I have worked in conjunction with a farming consortium (North Herts Farmers) and would recommend taking independent advice if further guidance is required.

As I said, my main experience is with Marconi meters for servicing and calibration/repairs etc.
Unfortunately I cannot speak for other meter makes. But Marconi meters are still trusted by many agents and mills as the reference standard compared with other makes in terms of repeatability, reliability and ruggedness.

Very few other makes will last as long and still be the most trusted item on the farm.
If anyone has any questions then I am happy to help if I can.
Regards
Nigel

 

[Flat 10]

I can only speak from experience of Marconi meters and would always recommend an agronomist advice.

Just for clarity ( as far as I understand it), the original Marconi standard was the ‘Wheat Act’ pre 1980, when the EU ‘harmonised’ ISO712 standard was introduced, the difference was 0.7% between the readings.

More modern strains of wheat known as Hard or Soft or Bearded can show the same 0.7% differences.
Therefore the two scales which Marconi used ( based on original NIAE tests) may be used to allow direct readings of m/c for each of the Wheat varieties.

I have worked in conjunction with a farming consortium (North Herts Farmers) and would recommend taking independent advice if further guidance is required.

As I said, my main experience is with Marconi meters for servicing and calibration/repairs etc.
Unfortunately I cannot speak for other meter makes. But Marconi meters are still trusted by many agents and mills as the reference standard compared with other makes in terms of repeatability, reliability and ruggedness.

Very few other makes will last as long and still be the most trusted item on the farm.
If anyone has any questions then I am happy to help if I can.
Regards
Nigel

Thank you. See there’s hard and hard imo. Hard as in Canadian spring wheat or hard as in say champion feed wheat.

 

[crazy_bull]

Anyone take into account the difference between 'soft' and 'hard' wheats when moisture testing wheat? If you read the manual (i know!!) then a lishman protimeter suggests that 'hard' wheat values are as much at 0.5-0.7% above the soft readings installed in the machine. I wondered now that the lines between hard and soft are so blurred (rejections for softs that are too hard etc) whether this distinction was meaningless. @Lodekka any difference between the two sorts on a marconi?
@crazy_bull any insights? Would ideally not cut some wheat that might be wetter than i thought Thanks

Never heard that there was a difference in moistures, but maybe protimeters test differently to others .

it is right that some of the gp4 softs and hards do test very closely in terms of hard vs soft, but afraid I wouldn’t know its affect if any on moisture readings.

C B

 

[Flat 10]

Never heard that there was a difference in moistures, but maybe protimeters test differently to others .

it is right that some of the gp4 softs and hards do test very closely in terms of hard vs soft, but afraid I wouldn’t know its affect if any on moisture readings.

C B

I was relying on you! Apparently Marconi’s have the same according to lodekka.

 

[crazy_bull]

I was relying on you! Apparently Marconi’s have the same according to lodekka.

This is the kind of thing used in grain lab, uses a different method to Protimeter and Marconi, so not sure if it’s affected by soft or hard

https://www.fossanalytics.com/en-gb/products/infratec

 

[Lodekka]

Just to clarify, the calibration of the actual meter doesn’t vary (unlike the Protimeter which I am told can be set anywhere!), it is the chart or scale which determines the moisture content for a given crop...

I cannot speak for actual variances in crop varieties - hence take advice from an agronomist. But I am confident that once a Marconi meter is set up it is generally right, accurate and stays that way...

 

[robbie]

@Flat 10 you need to get yourself a Marconi!!!!!

 

[Longpod]

According to AHDB and also the HGCA grain moisture guidlines,

"Use one calibration for UK wheat only.
No differences were found using four meters to compare 20 wheat varieties – 13 with hard and 7 with soft endosperm. Where a meter had two calibrations for wheat, the soft calibration was the most accurate."

How to use a meter to measure grain moisture | AHDB

Follow these top tips to help your grain meet storage targets and minimise spoilage risks.

ahdb.org.uk

 

[Farmer Roy]

Well, on an HE 50 moisture meter ( a fairly popular model here with growers & contractors. From memory, this cost around $1500 about 15 years ago ? They were distributed & sold by a grain buyer / marketer, so I’m guessing they are one of the better ones ? ), they have different settings for “soft” & “hard” wheat - so yes, I would assume there must be a difference

 

[thorpe]

ALL bloody moisture meters are nightmare at harvestime, all over the place. once the grain has stabalized in the heap every sample the same , to late when it's in a heap and 17%!

 

[Flat 10]

According to AHDB and also the HGCA grain moisture guidlines,

"Use one calibration for UK wheat only.
No differences were found using four meters to compare 20 wheat varieties – 13 with hard and 7 with soft endosperm. Where a meter had two calibrations for wheat, the soft calibration was the most accurate."

How to use a meter to measure grain moisture | AHDB

Follow these top tips to help your grain meet storage targets and minimise spoilage risks.

ahdb.org.uk

That’s really helpful thank you

 

[DrWazzock]

The absolute moisture content of wheat does not depend on how hard the wheat is.
But the measured value of the moisture might be prone to error depending on how hard the wheat is and depending on type of meter.
A meter that grinds the sample and compresses it and which then uses resistance of the sample to measure moisture will likely give a lower than true reading the harder the wheat is, as it struggles to grind the sample fine enough and compress it tightly enough to give a true reading esiecially if calibrated using a softer wheat.
A meter that uses capacitance to determine the moisture content won’t be prone to this kind of sample grinding and compression variability as capacitance doesnt vary with these sample variables to any significant extent.
Resistance type meters are prone to sample grinding and compression variability.
Capacitance type meters are not.
Even a worn set of cutters in a resistance type meter grinder will alter the moisture reading as I’ve seen at meter clinic open days with resistance type meters.
But often a resistance type meter is good enough for a farmyard setting.
I find the thumbnail test pretty good.

 

[DrWazzock]

ALL bloody moisture meters are nightmare at harvestime, all over the place. once the grain has stabalized in the heap every sample the same , to late when it's in a heap and 17%!

Agreed. In a year like this with considerable variability across a field a teaspoon of grain is unlikely to be representative.
There’s generally a couple of percent springback in the heap unless we wait for ever, by which time we risk spoilage or crop breakdown in the fieid. Even though I send my crops to central store I use pedestals in the heap for a few days which I’m sure helps reduce the springback and keeps it cool and fresh, even dries it a bit fairly cheaply.

 

[yellow belly]

I prefer to get a sample of my grain tested at the local coop store and calibrate my meter to that
take a sample to be checked as soon as it is combined
then recalibrate once grain is stabilised

I am always sceptical what ever reading an individual test is retest several time to get a representative reading
one unripe grain can throw a reading

 

[Barleymow]

@Flat 10 you need to get yourself a Marconi!!!!!

You don't actually need to know what the moisture is ,dropping the crushed disc of grain on the floor is the best indication

 

[DrWazzock]

The “crunchiness factor” as you turn the grinder handle is a good indication.
And the decision as to when to harvest a field depends on so much more than moisture alone.

 

[Steevo]

Well, on an HE 50 moisture meter ( a fairly popular model here with growers & contractors. From memory, this cost around $1500 about 15 years ago ? They were distributed & sold by a grain buyer / marketer, so I’m guessing they are one of the better ones ? ), they have different settings for “soft” & “hard” wheat - so yes, I would assume there must be a difference

The setting that mystifies me most on there is "wet wheat".

Isn't that the point of a moisture meter?!

 

[snarling bee]

My experience last year was that both resistance and capacitance types seem to read hard wheat lower than soft. Sinar always calibrate on soft, but I only grow hard!!
there should be 2 scales on all mms IMO