H&S questions -- grandfather rights and machine testing

[holwellcourtfarm]

Theoretically , but you are allowed to kill yourself

You are not allowed to, it's just harder to prosecute you afterwards.

LOLER and PUWER apply regardless of the business size or status.

 

[Goweresque]

Theoretically , but you are allowed to kill yourself

Friend of mine had a flat above her shop, the fire brigade stopped it from being rented out due to the lack of dedicated fire escape etc. She asked if she could live there (as owner of the building) and was told that was perfectly fine, she was allowed to kill herself, just not any tenants.

 

[Feldspar]

Friend of mine had a flat above her shop, the fire brigade stopped it from being rented out due to the lack of dedicated fire escape etc. She asked if she could live there (as owner of the building) and was told that was perfectly fine, she was allowed to kill herself, just not any tenants.

Sound libertarian philosophy?

 

[TheTallGuy]

You are not allowed to, it's just harder to prosecute you afterwards.

LOLER and PUWER apply regardless of the business size or status.

Also consider what might happen if you happened to drop something on a lorry driver or a random visitor to your yard.

 

[Clive]

Think of it this way

When your stood in the court dock or explaining to a widow or someone's children that you did everything you could to avoid an accident you really need to be able to say you did so with hand on heart regardless of what the law or insurance company demands

 

[mushnt grummmble]

I thought I understood these points, but now am not so sure:

I understand that you have to have your telehandler checked every 12 months, or every 6 months if using a man basket. What about 360 tracked excavators?

For what activities do grandfather rights still exist? Reading through Farmwise from the HSE, it does appear that there are grandfather rights for chainsaw use if your employees are doing work on your own land and have used a chainsaw since before circa 1998. What about telehandler use, or do you need a training certificate? What about 360 excavator use? What about manual handling?

TIA.

Basically there is no such thing as grandfather's rights anymore

 

[Feldspar]

Think of it this way

When your stood in the court dock or explaining to a widow or someone's children that you did everything you could to avoid an accident you really need to be able to say you did so with hand on heart regardless of what the law or insurance company demands

My gut feeling is that we don't need to give 'basic training' to guys who have been driving telehandlers for over 30 years. A refresher maybe. However, I think the law says otherwise from my current understanding.

 

[Feldspar]

Basically there is no such thing as grandfather's rights anymore

I think you are right, except for possibly chainsaws. Extract from Farmwise (p. 55):

All workers who use a chainsaw should be competent to do so. Before using a chainsaw to carry out work on or in a tree, a worker should have received appropriate training and obtained a relevant certificate of competence or national competence award, unless they are undergoing such training and are adequately supervised. This means everyone working with chainsaws on or in trees should hold such a certificate or award unless: ■ it is being done as part of agricultural operations (eg hedging, clearing fallen branches, pruning trees to maintain clearance for machines); and ■ the work is being done by the occupier or their employees; and ■ they have used a chainsaw before 5 December 1998. Everyone who uses a chainsaw at work for whatever task must have received adequate training.​

 

[Brisel]

What's your take on telehandler training for people with decades of experience? Do they all need certificates of basic training?

Unfortunately, experience counts for nothing should the worst happen. Certificates are tangible and current evidence of supposed competency. It will keep the HSE and your insurers happy.

 

[bobk]

Unfortunately, experience counts for nothing should the worst happen. Certificates are tangible and current evidence of supposed competency. It will keep the HSE and your insurers happy.

Yep , you need a piece of paper ... then everything is fine and dandy

 

[Feldspar]

Unfortunately, experience counts for nothing should the worst happen. Certificates are tangible and current evidence of supposed competency. It will keep the HSE and your insurers happy.

You are probably right, although I think the fact that 3 decades of incident free practice would count for nothing in a court does show why the balance in the legislation has not been correctly struck IMO.

 

[Clive]

Unfortunately, experience counts for nothing should the worst happen. Certificates are tangible and current evidence of supposed competency. It will keep the HSE and your insurers happy.

This !

Experience or ability is hard to prove - a bit of paper is proof from a 3rd party of ability

If nothing else it shifts blame from you to whoever signed the bit of paper !

 

[paul&mandy]

Does pee me off when i pay for all my tickets myself being self employed then loose work to eastern Europeans doing it on the cheap.....

 

[TripleSix]

I drew the line at a "Safe use of ladders" course with annual refreshers

If you start looking at what HSE would like your employees to receive training in to do their jobs, you'd never get any work done.

Telehandler ticket
Use of ladders
Working at height.
Manual handling
Forklift
Tractor
Tractor and loader
Driving vehicles offroad
Driving vehicles offroad with a trailer
Abrasive wheel safety
Quad bike
HAV

I could go on....

 

[Pieces_of_Eight]

Think of it this way

When your stood in the court dock or explaining to a widow or someone's children that you did everything you could to avoid an accident you really need to be able to say you did so with hand on heart regardless of what the law or insurance company demands

This^^

"Failure to provide adequate training to employees" can cover such a wide variety of activities in an agricultural workplace.

 

[dontknowanything]

Thanks, been meaning to get around to organising this for ages, now have course booked in for March

 

[Farmer_Joe]

You are probably right, although I think the fact that 3 decades of incident free practice would count for nothing in a court does show why the balance in the legislation has not been correctly struck IMO.

THIS IS TRUE BUT YOU MUST PROVE IT, f**king caps!

i.e schedule a meeting with your employees and record it, write down the minutes of the meeting any near misses and learning + tips for safe use go round the machines and go through manual etc. if you date and record this all a happended with names and signatures of people involved i think you could demonstrate a fair knowledge of operation and safety here thats basically all training is but often does not draw experience of many years.

if you did this and did an annual refresher i think people even in court if you had evidence would struggle to fault it.

 

[An arable farmer]

Theoretically , but you are allowed to kill yourself

but if you kill yourself, will your wife collect from your insurers ?

 

[Boomerang]

Well there are some right numpties who are responsible for training and giving you a tick in the appropriate box.
Makes a mockery of the whole system.
A 50 something with 30 years accident free experience is safer than an 18 year old gung ho kid with no experience but has a bit of paper.
But the rules say the kids OK he's had training and a bit of paper.

 

[kiwi pom]

Well there are some right numpties who are responsible for training and giving you a tick in the appropriate box.
Makes a mockery of the whole system.
A 50 something with 30 years accident free experience is safer than an 18 year old gung ho kid with no experience but has a bit of paper.
But the rules say the kids OK he's had training and a bit of paper.

At the same time there are some right numpties who have never been trained and have been doing the job for years who really shouldn't be operating anything.

It's amazing how many people think, "it's how my dad did it" means it's done right.

Personally I think if you are a self employed one man band you can do whatever you want to yourself but if you are employing people, you need to make sure they are properly trained.
This seems to be the way H&S agencies see it too, they come down much harder on employers.