Health and safety

[gone up the hill]

The stats don't lie. Year after year half or more of the accidental deaths on farms are the over 60s. Given that over 60s do not form 50%+ of the agricultural workforce (ie those doing the day to day work) then that suggests that age is a very relevant issue when it comes to farm safety. Yet no one wants to address it, not in public anyway. We just keep having these H&S seminars of the type we've all attended where age is never mentioned.

I have no problem with the over 60s wanting to continuing working, and risking life and limb, as long as the rest of the industry are not continually targeted by the HSE as a result to 'improve farming's H&S record ' when the majority of the deaths are in effect a lifestyle choice by people who in any other line of work would either be retired or restricted to safer duties.

Why are there no H&S campaigns specifically targeted at the over 60s? To try and get them to address the risks that are specific to them? Why are we pretending that agricultural fatalities are distributed randomly, when they just aren't?

You are over looking/ ignoring why so many older farmers are still working/ doing physical/ dangerous jobs like cattle handling etc.

That reason is because nearly all the kids from these farmers would have as recently as 10 years ago been working home full time on the farm, now with the pee poor margins in livestock farming in particular they have had to seek full time work off farm to get a decent wage/ have a life so the parents are still doing jobs that 10 years ago that young farmers ( ie the sons/ daughters ) would have been doing.

Also people that have kids who have come home have had to expand so much to give then a reasonable wage that both the workload of the kids and the parents has increased three fold and for example two people are doing the full time work of three people.

Plus it doesn't help that farmers are now drowning in ever increasing red tape that is taking up so much time unlike say 10/15 years ago isn't helping the safety issue either!

Reality is for safety to really improve in the industry then both needless red tape needs to be reduced and a better split of the margins back to the farming industry from the retailers is needed.

 

[Cowcalf]

need to remember more farmers top themselves through stress than die in accidents

 

[kiwi pom]

Most of the H&S stuff out there is designed for businesses that employ people, as I think it should be. If as a 65 year old farmer you want to go out and handle cattle in a completely knackered handling system that you built and didn't improve, that's on you. But you shouldn't be allowed to make your 60 year old employee do it or an untrained 18 year old.
So if you're a one man band and don't have contractors around, you don't have much to worry about but if you employ someone or use contractors that are working in your yard with your equipment, you need to have things in order.
I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[gone up the hill]

need to remember more farmers top themselves through stress than die in accidents

Cant like this post but its very true and sadly getting worse all the time.

 

[ollie989898]

Most of the H&S stuff out there is designed for businesses that employ people, as I think it should be. If as a 65 year old farmer you want to go out and handle cattle in a completely knackered handling system that you built and didn't improve, that's on you. But you shouldn't be allowed to make your 60 year old employee do it or an untrained 18 year old.
So if you're a one man band and don't have contractors around, you don't have much to worry about but if you employ someone or use contractors that are working in your yard with your equipment, you need to have things in order.
I don't see anything wrong with that.

Knackered, inadequate or dangerous equipment should be scrapped. Its as simple as that. Just because the farmer is too tight or too thick to recognise the danger it poses doesnt mean the tanker driver, cake rep or vet should be exposed to it as well. The places vets have to go and TB test at where they have basically inadequate livestock handling facilities is a joke. As your vet how often they see joe farmer 2 cows with nothing but string and gates and expect people to work with them. Fudge that.

Ultimately if there is not enough return in the job to make it financially possible to operate legally and safely your mind has already been made for you.

 

[neilo]

Most of the H&S stuff out there is designed for businesses that employ people, as I think it should be. If as a 65 year old farmer you want to go out and handle cattle in a completely knackered handling system that you built and didn't improve, that's on you. But you shouldn't be allowed to make your 60 year old employee do it or an untrained 18 year old.
So if you're a one man band and don't have contractors around, you don't have much to worry about but if you employ someone or use contractors that are working in your yard with your equipment, you need to have things in order.
I don't see anything wrong with that.

I’m a one man band, yet the nice man from the HSE has still insisted that I spend/waste two days, and £500, learning how to ride a quad and to drive a telehandler.

One done so far, so you’ll all be pleased to hear that I am now certified to ride a quad safely. £200 well spent there I can tell you. All the others on the coarse were only doing it as they’d had the inspector come visit too. Keeps folk (with whom I have no issue) employed fuelling the gravy train though I suppose.

 

[ollie989898]

I’m a one man band, yet the nice man from the HSE has still insisted that I spend/waste two days, and £500, learning how to ride a quad and to drive a telehandler.

One done so far, so you’ll all be pleased to hear that I am now certified to ride a quad safely. £200 well spent there I can tell you. All the others on the coarse were only doing it as they’d had the inspector come visit too. Keeps folk (with whom I have no issue) employed fuelling the gravy train though I suppose.

Why was this mandatory?

 

[neilo]

Why was this mandatory?

Because we will all be prosecuted if we don’t wave the required certificates at the inspector by the end of May.

 

[ollie989898]

Because we will all be prosecuted if we don’t wave the required certificates at the inspector by the end of May.

Did you point out that I have all the required certificates under the sun but im still a liability and banned from owning a motorbike as a result?

 

[Highland Mule]

I know we've discussed this before @neilo , but I think I'd have challenged that one. I've yet to find any legislation that requires it - Codes of Practice suggesting it as good ideas and an easy way out for the inspector, yes, but not legislation.

 

[DrWazzock]

Knackered, inadequate or dangerous equipment should be scrapped. Its as simple as that. Just because the farmer is too tight or too thick to recognise the danger it poses doesnt mean the tanker driver, cake rep or vet should be exposed to it as well. The places vets have to go and TB test at where they have basically inadequate livestock handling facilities is a joke. As your vet how often they see joe farmer 2 cows with nothing but string and gates and expect people to work with them. Fudge that.

Ultimately if there is not enough return in the job to make it financially possible to operate legally and safely your mind has already been made for you.

Reality is close half the farms in the country then. Just leave the big corporates or the land derelict.

When a 10 foot cattle hurdle has gone up from £70 to £100 in five years as I found out today but cattle prices stay the same, then people either "make do" or cut corners to stay in business. It's that simple. We'd all like a 100% safe handling system and we do our best but the job doesn't run to it.

Personally I'd rather spend on the extra hurdles than risk ending up in hospital but it really does come out of my savings in effect. The profit from the cattle don't pay for it. The customer doesn't pay for it. So who does? Muggins.

We are though going down the tubes like all other primary production industries in the UK. Mining, steel etc, all going the same way due to low regard, low priority and a confrontational rather than helpful attitude from the middle class that governs us. If the government was serious about health and safety there would be grants for cattle handling systems but ask the RPA about that as I did at the Yorkshire Shiw and they think you are trying to pull a fast one.

If you wear overalls in this country you are persona non grata. Leave that to Johnny Foreigner.

 

[kiwi pom]

I’m a one man band, yet the nice man from the HSE has still insisted that I spend/waste two days, and £500, learning how to ride a quad and to drive a telehandler.

One done so far, so you’ll all be pleased to hear that I am now certified to ride a quad safely. £200 well spent there I can tell you. All the others on the coarse were only doing it as they’d had the inspector come visit too. Keeps folk (with whom I have no issue) employed fuelling the gravy train though I suppose.

Yes seems a bit silly but if I want to work somewhere and operate these things I have to have a bit of paper to show I'm at least somewhat competent to use them so why shouldn't you?
It's probably a waste of time (did you learn absolutely nothing?) but its amazing how many people don't know what they're doing and you could be using it in a situation that could hurt others.
My point is, that's all you really need as a one man band, so not too bad, If you employed a bunch of people you'd have a lot more to comply with. They leave owner operators alone to a degree.

 

[neilo]

I know we've discussed this before @neilo , but I think I'd have challenged that one. I've yet to find any legislation that requires it - Codes of Practice suggesting it as good ideas and an easy way out for the inspector, yes, but not legislation.

Maybe a class action required then, as the inspector told me the next week that he could pretty well have written the same notices on every farm he visited. The local training guys are having a bonanza, along with the vendors of atv helmets.

Speaking to others, I got off lucky. Some have even more courses to pay for/waste days on. Chainsaws are a real biggy, needing several days of instruction before you can cut a few logs for the farmhouse, as any domestic user can do with a £100 chainsaw from B&Q.

 

[Highland Mule]

Maybe a class action required then, as the inspector told me the next week that he could pretty well have written the same notices on every farm he visited. The local training guys are having a bonanza, along with the vendors of atv helmets.

Speaking to others, I got off lucky. Some have even more courses to pay for/waste days on. Chainsaws are a real biggy, needing several days of instruction before you can cut a few logs for the farmhouse, as any domestic user can do with a £100 chainsaw from B&Q.

I'm almost looking forward to them finding my place then.

As for cutting wood for the farmhouse, I would argue that is domestic and beyond the HSE's jurisdiction. If you were using it for your work, then fair enough, but not for domestic purposes in your own time. The problem is that the line gets a bit blurry when the farmhouse is part of the business, or you're using it for farming tasks.

Oh, but as for a helmet - you'd be a mug not to, and any decent risk assessment would have that as an absolute requirement. Why an itv one though? I bought a proper motorbike one with an open face and it's just the job.

 

[kiwi pom]

Reality is close half the farms in the country then. Just leave the big corporates or the land derelict.

When a 10 foot cattle hurdle has gone up from £70 to £100 in five years as I found out today but cattle prices stay the same, then people either "make do" or cut corners to stay in business. It's that simple. We'd all like a 100% safe handling system and we do our best but the job doesn't run to it.

Personally I'd rather spend on the extra hurdles than risk ending up in hospital but it really does come out of my savings in effect. The profit from the cattle don't pay for it. The customer doesn't pay for it. So who does? Muggins.

We are though going down the tubes like all other primary production industries in the UK. Mining, steel etc, all going the same way due to low regard, low priority and a confrontational rather than helpful attitude from the middle class that governs us. If the government was serious about health and safety there would be grants for cattle handling systems but ask the RPA about that as I did at the Yorkshire Shiw and they think you are trying to pull a fast one.

If you wear overalls in this country you are persona non grata. Leave that to Johnny Foreigner.

Are H&S shutting one man bands down for having less than ideal facilities though?
If its yours and you hurt yourself, it is what it is (sounds harsh) but you shouldn't be allowed to have knackered stuff and expect an employee or vet etc to use it.

 

[neilo]

Yes seems a bit silly but if I want to work somewhere and operate these things I have to have a bit of paper to show I'm at least somewhat competent to use them so why shouldn't you?
It's probably a waste of time (did you learn absolutely nothing?) but its amazing how many people don't know what they're doing and you could be using it in a situation that could hurt others.
My point is, that's all you really need as a one man band, so not too bad, If you employed a bunch of people you'd have a lot more to comply with. They leave owner operators alone to a degree.

I can honestly say that all I learnt from the day was that a 750 Yamaha is numb & uncomfortable compared to a Can-Am, and that I wouldn’t touch a Honda 420 with a barge pole. On the H&S side, it was all pretty basic common sense. From the discussion sessions involved, it seemed pretty clear that the same was the case for all the other course participants too.

 

[DrWazzock]

And then at the weekend you can smash yourself up playing rugby or poison yourself on booze and fall over and end up in a and e.

Why are pubs allowed to sell carcinogenic liquids? Because people would go nuts if they couldn't get hold of it probably.

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels or something like that.

 

[neilo]

I'm almost looking forward to them finding my place then.

As for cutting wood for the farmhouse, I would argue that is domestic and beyond the HSE's jurisdiction. If you were using it for your work, then fair enough, but not for domestic purposes in your own time. The problem is that the line gets a bit blurry when the farmhouse is part of the business, or you're using it for farming tasks.

Oh, but as for a helmet - you'd be a mug not to, and any decent risk assessment would have that as an absolute requirement. Why an itv one though? I bought a proper motorbike one with an open face and it's just the job.

That’s why I don’t have to do the chainsaw courses too. I have an arrangement with the tenants of most of the cottages here, where they cut up any fallen timber and I take a proportion of the logs.

Several other farmers that received the HSE visit evidently don’t have such arrangements.

 

[DrWazzock]

Are H&S shutting one man bands down for having less than ideal facilities though?
If its yours and you hurt yourself, it is what it is (sounds harsh) but you shouldn't be allowed to have knackered stuff and expect an employee or vet etc to use it.

It's a very debatable point as to what is reasonable. Yellow lines for pedestrians to walk within? Padded armoured suits to wear? There really is no limit.

 

[DrWazzock]

Sprayer MOT a fortnight ago. Last week a pipe sprang a leak. No biggy, took me ten minutes to replace. But what was the point of paying £200 for the MOT? Are the test gauges certified as being accurate by an industry body. Didn't look like it to me. A lot of this bureaucracy and paperwork adds nothing but cost.