Health and safety

[Highland Mule]

It's a very debatable point as to what is reasonable. Yellow lines for pedestrians to walk within? Padded armoured suits to wear? There really is no limit.

To be fair, it's fairly well enshrined in law what is reasonable and what isn't. Edwards vs NCB 1947(?, I'm rusty on dates) introduced the concept of reasonable practicability, which tells us that we should balance benefit against cost, and the sky is not the limit. Various other cases since then have given us a value for a human life that we don't know (£2M-ish) and hence we can decide if its worth spending £100k to reduce an already low risk to even lower (probably not), or £85 to reduce a fairly high risk to something much smaller (probably yes). Not many people or industries would quantify everything like that, but there is a few that do and it is recognised as a way to justify adding every bell to every whistle (e.g. padded armour suits).

 

[puppet]

I can honestly say that all I learnt from the day was that a 750 Yamaha is numb & uncomfortable compared to a Can-Am, and that I wouldn’t touch a Honda 420 with a barge pole. On the H&S side, it was all pretty basic common sense. From the discussion sessions involved, it seemed pretty clear that the same was the case for all the other course participants too.

On the ATV course here he had people on slopes they would not usually go near

 

[DrWazzock]

On the ATV course here he had people on slopes they would not usually go near

Same on the telehander course. Going up a slope with a fully loaded bucket that normally you wouldn't risk.

 

[kiwi pom]

I can honestly say that all I learnt from the day was that a 750 Yamaha is numb & uncomfortable compared to a Can-Am, and that I wouldn’t touch a Honda 420 with a barge pole. On the H&S side, it was all pretty basic common sense. From the discussion sessions involved, it seemed pretty clear that the same was the case for all the other course participants too.

That's good, I bet they have some on their courses that are hopeless though.
I don't really know what the answer is, people keep getting killed for doing stupid things, quad bike deaths, trapped in moving machinery etc. Do you just ignore it or do you try and do something about it and if you want to change things how do you do it?
Everyone claims they know what they're doing and have common sense but a lot of accidents aren't freak, couldn't be avoided things. A lot are just stupidity and a complete lack of common sense.
As a result we get more and more rules and as a result, I think big companies nowadays have gone completely over the top, just to cover their arse with the one idiot.

 

[DrWazzock]

If your mind is not on the job you are much more likely to make a serious mistake.

Your mind might not be on the job for a host of reasons. Overload, distraction, tiredness, worry etc. That and being in a hurry are biggest causes of accidents.

 

[neilo]

If your mind is not on the job you are much more likely to make a serious mistake.

Your mind might not be on the job for a host of reasons. Overload, distraction, tiredness, worry etc. That and being in a hurry are biggest causes of accidents.

^this. It’s almost always the case whenever I make a b*lls up. No amount of days sat discussing potential satisfy issues is going to change that, unfortunately.

 

[ollie989898]

In all honesty if folk are going to choose to operate a chainsaw with neither the formal training nor appropriate protective gear then you can't help people like that.

All college leavers should be getting chainsaw, ATV and telehandler training before they leave. They were not huge money when I did it and to be fair I know many employers already send staff off to do them as necessary.

 

[MissSteak]

In all honesty if folk are going to choose to operate a chainsaw with neither the formal training nor appropriate protective gear then you can't help people like that.

All college leavers should be getting chainsaw, ATV and telehandler training before they leave. They were not huge money when I did it and to be fair I know many employers already send staff off to do them as necessary.

Here here! I fully echo this.

 

[grainboy]

Are we Stihl on about this.

 

[multi power]

The biggest thing the NFU (or indeed this forum) could do to help improve H&S on farms is to try and convince over 60 year old farmers that they are not 25 any more, or even 45, and as such should not be involved in the physical side of farm work, particularly on livestock farms.

And that everyone needs to accept the passing of time, and to have plans in place to either pass their farm on to the next generation (should they have one) or to sell up and retire in good time. This is the biggest H&S problem by far with farming - people are not prepared to have the hard conversations with themselves about their own age, increasing frailty and indeed mortality. We may as a society be living longer, however that does not mean that we are able to still do the same things at 65 or 70 that we could do at 30.

If we are to solve this high death rate of over 60s on farms it needs to become socially unacceptable for people to continue to put themselves into work situations where their reduced strength/reactions/visual perception puts them at significant danger. And that doing so is in fact selfishness at the expense of the people who will be left behind to deal with the trauma of a fatal accident.

Practical, possibly even a good idea, but very undemocratic

 

[Red Fred]

When a 10 foot cattle hurdle has gone up from £70 to £100 in five years as I found out today but cattle prices stay the same, then people either "make do" or cut corners to stay in business. It's that simple. We'd all like a 100% safe handling system and we do our best but the job doesn't run to it.

Personally I'd rather spend on the extra hurdles than risk ending up in hospital but it really does come out of my savings in effect. The profit from the cattle don't pay for it. The customer doesn't pay for it. So who does? Muggins.

.

I took my first ride in an ambulance a few weeks ago after getting knocked out during the annual TB test. I have invested in 2 sets of new handling races but in this case, a cow turned round as I was getting them into the yard and knocked me over, hitting my head on a stone. She ran over my left leg and arm, but the doctor at Salisbury said that had she been a few inches to the right and gone over my head and organs, I would have been in trouble.
I've been doing it for 40 years or more and never had a mishap, but this has been a wake up call. Now I'm inching towards 60, I'm simply not as fast as I was even 5 or 6 years ago. I don't even know which cow hit me as I have no recollection of it, just waking up being cradled by my sister while my old school mate went for the paramedics in his Land Rover. As said above, we still go on as if we are all 18, but our bodies are getting creakier by the year.
The hospital sent me home without any lasting damage, but my leg has only just returned to normal size and everything seems to ache more than it did, so the first priority is to reduce the cows to a more sensible number and think about other options, as like many farmers,I have no children to hand it on to (which I believe keeps your mind in adolescent mode as you still feel like a college leaver in your head)

 

[Red Fred]

 

[Highland Mule]

Practical, possibly even a good idea, but very undemocratic

What has democracy got to do with reminding people of their vulnerabilities?

 

[DrWazzock]

Handling cattle is a dilemma. If you never go in with them you don't risk injury but then if you have to go in with them for some reason like the water trough needs baling out or getting them out and down the race they aren't used to close contact and can go bananas more due to the novelty of having a human in the pen than anything else and having a play.

And then I always bed them while they are eating and feed twice a day so they clean up and are slightly hungry and go to trough when I feed them. Problem with ad lib is bedding up is more difficult as they aren't at the trough and fool around with you. So I feed to just short of stalling them twice a day for H and S reasons!

Chainsaws aren't rocket science. Keep it well maintained, chain properly tensioned and sharp and easy to start is half the battle. Stand to the side of the bar in case is bucks. Avoid having the tip of the saw cutting in case it digs in and jumps out at you. Always think what happens if ........

The rest used to be called common sense. You can feel if the telehandler is becoming unstable so back off, take it steady. Better load a bit slow than have an accident. Keep the Windows and mirrors spotless. Know when to crowd to keep the bucket level etc. Comes with experience.

 

[Highland Mule]

Handling cattle is a dilemma. If you never go in with them you don't risk injury but then if you have to go in with them for some reason like the water trough needs baling out or getting them out and down the race they aren't used to close contact and can go bananas more due to the novelty of having a human in the pen than anything else and having a play.

And then I always bed them while they are eating and feed twice a day so they clean up and are slightly hungry and go to trough when I feed them. Problem with ad lib is bedding up is more difficult as they aren't at the trough and fool around with you. So I feed to just short of stalling them twice a day for H and S reasons!

Chainsaws aren't rocket science. Keep it well maintained, chain properly tensioned and sharp and easy to start is half the battle. Stand to the side of the bar in case is bucks. Avoid having the tip of the saw cutting in case it digs in and jumps out at you. Always think what happens if ........

The rest used to be called common sense. You can feel if the telehandler is becoming unstable so back off, take it steady. Better load a bit slow than have an accident. Keep the Windows and mirrors spotless. Know when to crowd to keep the bucket level etc. Comes with experience.

Chainsaws: wearing the right gear is the answer. I have trousers that will stop the chain before it cuts my leg, if I make a mistake. We all make mistakes, so the trousers should be an absolute, yet how many of us own a set (£50-£80, last time I checked), far less wear them (I usually forget to put them on for a “quick job”).

 

[topground]

I carry out a dynamic risk assesment for all of the work I undertake as a one man band. It works for me, If I stop posting on here you will know I got it wrong.

 

[DrWazzock]

Chainsaws: wearing the right gear is the answer. I have trousers that will stop the chain before it cuts my leg, if I make a mistake. We all make mistakes, so the trousers should be an absolute, yet how many of us own a set (£50-£80, last time I checked), far less wear them (I usually forget to put them on for a “quick job”).

Yes we ought to be wearing them. Cheap compared to severing an artery.

 

[ollie989898]

Handling cattle is a dilemma. If you never go in with them you don't risk injury but then if you have to go in with them for some reason like the water trough needs baling out or getting them out and down the race they aren't used to close contact and can go bananas more due to the novelty of having a human in the pen than anything else and having a play.

And then I always bed them while they are eating and feed twice a day so they clean up and are slightly hungry and go to trough when I feed them. Problem with ad lib is bedding up is more difficult as they aren't at the trough and fool around with you. So I feed to just short of stalling them twice a day for H and S reasons!

Chainsaws aren't rocket science. Keep it well maintained, chain properly tensioned and sharp and easy to start is half the battle. Stand to the side of the bar in case is bucks. Avoid having the tip of the saw cutting in case it digs in and jumps out at you. Always think what happens if ........

The rest used to be called common sense. You can feel if the telehandler is becoming unstable so back off, take it steady. Better load a bit slow than have an accident. Keep the Windows and mirrors spotless. Know when to crowd to keep the bucket level etc. Comes with experience.

I don't think anyone is arguing with that line of thinking, but I have seen many telehandlers where half the windows were so minging you couldn't see out a good third of their area, couple that with already peculiar visibility around the machine anyway and you have an accident waiting to happen. Couple that with non-functional indicators, windscreen wipers/washers, mirrors or lights broken or missing and you can see why farming gets a bad name for itself. Again, if it isn't fit to pass an MOT and go on the road for whatever reason, should you really be using it in the first place? Lets not dwell on the function of brakes/handbreaks/safe load indicator and so on...

 

[DrWazzock]

I don't think anyone is arguing with that line of thinking, but I have seen many telehandlers where half the windows were so minging you couldn't see out a good third of their area, couple that with already peculiar visibility around the machine anyway and you have an accident waiting to happen. Couple that with non-functional indicators, windscreen wipers/washers, mirrors or lights broken or missing and you can see why farming gets a bad name for itself. Again, if it isn't fit to pass an MOT and go on the road for whatever reason, should you really be using it in the first place? Lets not dwell on the function of brakes/handbreaks/safe load indicator and so on...

Everything you say is good advice and we know it makes sense. The only time we fall short is when we are overloaded. If you are lambing for 18 hours a day then maybe the Windows aren't spotless. If you are bogged down in making VAT digital then maybe you forget to check the indicators. Nothing I like better than having an afternoon cleaning, checking and maintaining equipment but the reality is we are all stretched and somethings aren't given the attention they deserve.

I don't think farmers are alone in this. How many car drivers check their tyre pressures and lights between MOTs?

It's the human element. Don't overlook it. And if you overload people, you shouldn't be surprised if corners are cut.

 

[ollie989898]

Everything you say is good advice and we know it makes sense. The only time we fall short is when we are overloaded. If you are lambing for 18 hours a day then maybe the Windows aren't spotless. If you are bogged down in making VAT digital then maybe you forget to check the indicators. Nothing I like better than having an afternoon cleaning, checking and maintaining equipment but the reality is we are all stretched and somethings aren't given the attention they deserve.

I don't think farmers are alone in this. How many car drivers check their tyre pressures and lights between MOTs?

It's the human element. Don't overlook it. And if you overload people, you shouldn't be surprised if corners are cut.

I don't think the machines I have seen were in the state on an odd occasion that they were overloaded. It was obvious it was a chronic and systemic attitude of simply not giving a fudge.....