Hot knife tailing thoughts

[Al R]

These are the 2 types of rings I’ve got from last year, top are nettex, much thicker and have a powder coating. The bottom are a generic make I think could be “Country” their useless and actually unravel themselves if left in pockets for a while, these are the ones I find snap the most or fall off.

 

[Woolless]

Isn't the Australian idea to relieve pain because they are doing them when they are older? We just have a much earlier cut of age of 7 days for ringing, when they don't feel that pain in the first place.

The biggest problem with having to use pain relief, is that the anesthetic has to have several minutes to work, which just isn't going to happen in the real world when you might have a thousand lambs to tail in a day.

My experience is that ringing tails when young causes minimal discomfort but rubber ring castration is painful (for an hour or two) even when young. I'm only brave enough to ring and tail singles outside (cross lambs only). The twins are done later, tailed with a hot iron and burdizzo or rubber ringed with local anaesthetic. I make sure any lambs that have been inside are done the evening before, if they're due to go out in the morning.

The majority of the Easycares are tails and balls on. This may be our future, whether we like it or not as @Tim W says.

 

[Al R]

My experience is that ringing tails when young causes minimal discomfort but rubber ring castration is painful (for an hour or two) even when young. I'm only brave enough to ring and tail singles outside (cross lambs only). The twins are done later, tailed with a hot iron and burdizzo or rubber ringed with local anaesthetic. I make sure any lambs that have been inside are done the evening before, if they're due to go out in the morning.

The majority of the Easycares are tails and balls on. This may be our future, whether we like it or not as @Tim W says.

Amazing how everyone has different opinions on it though, we only won’t ring a lamb the day it’s born if really unsure if it’s right/sucked or if it’s born after the 4-5pm check, They get done by the ringing/numbering teams at 9am the next morning as well as anything born through the night or in the morning, anything born between 9am and 4pm gets ringed then.

Am I nuts in even contemplating leaving tails on entire ram lambs for killing? Any data/knowledge that proves that lambs not tailed grow faster? It would have to have a big impact on growth rates for me to contemplate it due to having blowfly from March-October (bloody midges been a pain today on the quad)

 

[Woolless]

Amazing how everyone has different opinions on it though, we only won’t ring a lamb the day it’s born if really unsure if it’s right/sucked or if it’s born after the 4-5pm check, They get done by the ringing/numbering teams at 9am the next morning as well as anything born through the night or in the morning, anything born between 9am and 4pm gets ringed then.

Am I nuts in even contemplating leaving tails on entire ram lambs for killing? Any data/knowledge that proves that lambs not tailed grow faster? It would have to have a big impact on growth rates for me to contemplate it due to having blowfly from March-October (bloody midges been a pain today on the quad)

If you're treating them with clik or whatever anyway, then why not? I leave the tails on any Hamp x lambs left as tups just as a marker. They get crovect anyway. The one downside is if they do get dirty then it's a bit of a pain to dag them.

 

[Al R]

[QUOTE

If you're treating them with clik or whatever anyway, then why not? I leave the tails on any Hamp x lambs left as tups just as a marker. They get crovect anyway. The one downside is if they do get dirty then it's a bit of a pain to dag them.

they get Clikzin but would need extra if a long tail surely? Any hill bred males that have 1 ball or unable to castrate gets its tail left on with a big arrow down it’s back so we know to pull it out before 10 weeks

Any data or proven knowledge on growth rates difference with tails? Balls on I know increase’s growth rates....

 

[unlacedgecko]

The majority of the Easycares are tails and balls on.

I can confirm that my @Woolless shearling Tup (AKA Barry White) has a full bushy and luxuriant tail.

 

[SteveHants]

Amazing how everyone has different opinions on it though, we only won’t ring a lamb the day it’s born if really unsure if it’s right/sucked or if it’s born after the 4-5pm check, They get done by the ringing/numbering teams at 9am the next morning as well as anything born through the night or in the morning, anything born between 9am and 4pm gets ringed then.

Am I nuts in even contemplating leaving tails on entire ram lambs for killing? Any data/knowledge that proves that lambs not tailed grow faster? It would have to have a big impact on growth rates for me to contemplate it due to having blowfly from March-October (bloody midges been a pain today on the quad)

As far as I'm aware, if the sheep is not scouring, leaving it a tail helps prevent strike and not the other way around.

However, it's been a long time since I read that study.

I never tailed anything, but then I tended not to get too much scouring. On wooled sheep you do need to lift the tail when you Dysect.

SufTex x Exlana complete with tails.

 

[neilo]

[QUOTE

they get Clikzin but would need extra if a long tail surely? Any hill bred males that have 1 ball or unable to castrate gets its tail left on with a big arrow down it’s back so we know to pull it out before 10 weeks

Any data or proven knowledge on growth rates difference with tails? Balls on I know increase’s growth rates....

‘Balls on’ only increases growth rates because they are producing a growth hormone (testosterone), nothing to do with any stress or pain from ringing. I can’t see any reason why leaving tails on would increase carcass weight at all.

Clik & Clikzin spread over the whole body, regardless of dose. You wouldn’t need to give more for sheep with tails on.

 

[neilo]

Amazing how everyone has different opinions on it though, we only won’t ring a lamb the day it’s born if really unsure if it’s right/sucked or if it’s born after the 4-5pm check, They get done by the ringing/numbering teams at 9am the next morning as well as anything born through the night or in the morning, anything born between 9am and 4pm gets ringed then.

Since we started lambing outside, and ringing ASAP, I can honestly say I haven’t ever seen anything in any discomfort after ringing, balls or tails. Castrating indoor lambs at a few days old, yes, the odd one might wriggle on the floor for a few minutes, but never when done at a few hours.
I am confident enough in that, that I often castrate new born lambs on my evening rounds, as I know they’ll be ‘runners’ by the morning. Similarly, I’ve never seen a problem doing them before they’ve sucked in that scenario either.

 

[Al R]

‘Balls on’ only increases growth rates because they are producing a growth hormone (testosterone), nothing to do with any stress or pain from ringing. I can’t see any reason why leaving tails on would increase carcass weight at all.

Clik & Clikzin spread over the whole body, regardless of dose. You wouldn’t need to give more for sheep with tails on.

That’s what I couldn’t get about leaving tails on, people have said it’s less stress etc so to leave them on on killing lambs etc.. I’m numbering/tarring anyway so a rubber ring isn’t going to bring any time saving?

 

[Nithsdale]

Since we started lambing outside, and ringing ASAP, I can honestly say I haven’t ever seen anything in any discomfort after ringing, balls or tails. Castrating indoor lambs at a few days old, yes, the odd one might wriggle on the floor for a few minutes, but never when done at a few hours.
I am confident enough in that, that I often castrate new born lambs on my evening rounds, as I know they’ll be ‘runners’ by the morning. Similarly, I’ve never seen a problem doing them before they’ve sucked in that scenario either.

Fully agree with this.


Everything rubber banded as soon as I'm happy they've got a full tummy.

No visual signs of discomfort or pain in any lamb.

 

[neilo]

That’s what I couldn’t get about leaving tails on, people have said it’s less stress etc so to leave them on on killing lambs etc.. I’m numbering/tarring anyway so a rubber ring isn’t going to bring any time saving?

If you weren’t numbering and tarring (I do neither), then you wouldn’t have to go near a lot of lambs for a week or two, unless you were daft enough to want to tag & record anything. There would a considerable time/labour saving in such a flock, potentially allowing you to look after more ewes at lambing?

I was talking to someone the other day that did just that at lambing, then gathered everything for tailing, tagging, etc a week or so later. He reckoned it was a great labour saver at lambing, and a pretty quick job to do later .....with the help of his shepherd and an assistant (7-800 ewes iirc). Not sure what happens if you don’t have that shepherd & assistant to help though, I suppose you pay to get a contractor in for a day or two instead?
I think I’ll stick with processing mine as soon as their born, then not have to handle anything again until nemo drench time.

 

[Nithsdale]

If you weren’t numbering and tarring (I do neither), then you wouldn’t have to go near a lot of lambs for a week or two, unless you were daft enough to want to tag & record anything. There would a considerable time/labour saving in such a flock, potentially allowing you to look after more ewes at lambing?

I was talking to someone the other day that did just that at lambing, then gathered everything for tailing, tagging, etc a week or so later. He reckoned it was a great labour saver at lambing, and a pretty quick job to do later .....with the help of his shepherd and an assistant (7-800 ewes iirc). Not sure what happens if you don’t have that shepherd & assistant to help though, I suppose you pay to get a contractor in for a day or two instead?
I think I’ll stick with processing mine as soon as their born, then not have to handle anything again until nemo drench time.

Lambing outside.. if he isn't banding at birth, what does he do at lambing??

Unless the weather comes in awful, my day is spent pottering round the fields checking new borns and banding them. The odd problem needs seen to, but I'd have nothing to do at lambing otherwise!


We used to gather everything and burdizzo/cut all the lambs after lambing. There is no way in hell I would go back to that

 

[Al R]

If you weren’t numbering and tarring (I do neither), then you wouldn’t have to go near a lot of lambs for a week or two, unless you were daft enough to want to tag & record anything. There would a considerable time/labour saving in such a flock, potentially allowing you to look after more ewes at lambing?

I was talking to someone the other day that did just that at lambing, then gathered everything for tailing, tagging, etc a week or so later. He reckoned it was a great labour saver at lambing, and a pretty quick job to do later .....with the help of his shepherd and an assistant (7-800 ewes iirc). Not sure what happens if you don’t have that shepherd & assistant to help though, I suppose you pay to get a contractor in for a day or two instead?
I think I’ll stick with processing mine as soon as their born, then not have to handle anything again until nemo drench time.

Could probably get away without numbering out in the fields, tarring is one of those odd ones where I don’t want to stop, even if a lamb is literally just born on the last check, to wet to ring I’ll still spray with tar. Probably get away with tarring the first few and last few in each field, the ones in between there’s plenty of afterbirth around for the foxes and birds to have a go at.

fields have to come in for the ewes to be dagged when each field gets to 7-10 days old and even then we see blowfly on the bloody wool from where they’ve lambed.

 

[neilo]

Lambing outside.. if he isn't banding at birth, what does he do at lambing??

Unless the weather comes in awful, my day is spent pottering round the fields checking new borns and banding them. The odd problem needs seen to, but I'd have nothing to do at lambing otherwise!


We used to gather everything and burdizzo/cut all the lambs after lambing. There is no way in hell I would go back to that

He might have other things to do? Between lambing rounds I am working with earlier born pedigree flocks, as well as sitting on a tractor working ground or drilling Spring corn. I could certainly do with more time to spend on those enterprises, at that time.

I processed all lambs later one year too, and it seemed a hell of a lot more work than doing it as they’re born. I never want to go back to that either, and being on hand when they’ve just been born allows any stockman to spot a lot of problems before they happen imo.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Lambing outside.. if he isn't banding at birth, what does he do at lambing??

Observe ewes for stuck lambs, but aim to disturb as little as possible.

Check once a day then earn money elsewhere would be my ideal.

 

[Danllan]

...I'm aiming to breed sheep which don't require docking...

Having Easycares, I already have some like that; nonetheless one of my criteria for rams and replacement ewes is having a short tail which isn't too woolly and is pretty fat at the top.

I'm getting there and have a fair number now with tails above their hocks, but it's slow-going because - I guess - there's a link in the genetics between a longer tail and other more desirable traits... it is the way of things.

I don’t think I’ve ever had a ring break...

I didn't have it with a lamb, back when I was ringing them, but I have had it once with a bull calf. There was a major sense of humour failure as his balls just stayed there, and stayed there, until I realised...

 

[unlacedgecko]

I suppose you pay to get a contractor in for a day or two instead?

I have a very reasonable day rate. Or I can bring a gang and do all lamb processing on piece rate.

 

[Nithsdale]

Observe ewes for stuck lambs, but aim to disturb as little as possible.

Check once a day then earn money elsewhere would be my ideal.

You can't observe for stuck lambs and be earning money elsewhere



My vague point was, there does seem to be a lot of people busy doing a hell of a lot of nothing at lambing. I've had the look of fear off people when I say I lamb 600 ewes outside myself - I really don't understand what they do that makes it hard for themselves.


I go round 3-4 times a day. As minimal disturbance as possible and just quietly band the lambs as I go. No stress, no drama.

I could easily do only 2 times a day checking, but that's leaving a lot of lambs to band up before dark and I hate being In the fields as the light goes.

 

[unlacedgecko]

You can't observe for stuck lambs and be earning money elsewhere



My vague point was, there does seem to be a lot of people busy doing a hell of a lot of nothing at lambing. I've had the look of fear off people when I say I lamb 600 ewes outside myself - I really don't understand what they do that makes it hard for themselves.


I go round 3-4 times a day. As minimal disturbance as possible and just quietly band the lambs as I go. No stress, no drama.

I could easily do only 2 times a day checking, but that's leaving a lot of lambs to band up before dark and I hate being In the fields as the light goes.

Check round once, then go earn money elsewhere. ?

What do they do to make it so hard for themselves? They have unsuitable ewes bred to unsuitable Tups, and then make the mistake of confusing profit and production.