Lanark texel sales, today.

[M-J-G]

It is one of the most advanced using genomic across breed evaluations and it is delivering real economic progress amongst its adopters. This is the future. Not buying a ram cos his great grand síre made a silly amount of money in order to massage someone's ego or because he had been fed to the point of internal damage, infertility and early death. It still surprises me why would an April lambing outdoor lambing low input flock would buy a December born pumped to the gills lamb that has never relied on forage for its existence then be surprised when he either dies or turns into a toast rack and tips nothing. I have this conversation with the same men every year at scanning on how they are never buying at the premier sale again and these overfed lambs are a waste of time. Then you see their name in the paper in August having bought another one of them. Some people will never and don't want to change but for the rest of us trying to make sheep pay performance recorded rams is the way to go.

An animal that wins shows or makes silly money means nothing as far as overall ability goes, I've seen plenty of garbage winning shows and selling for too much money.

I wasn't under the impression that your system was particularly advanced if I'm honest.
The thing that takes sheep EBVs forward is CT scanning. Getting a KO, meat to bone ratio etc. is a fantastic opportunity.

The most important thing for breeding values is data in high volumes and large populations in the form of large numbers on each farm or very strong links between smaller farms.
That's what's stopped beef EBVs being effective in this country.

 

[neilo]

View attachment 904406
This is his father, a shearling. Of those progeny less than a third are his joint owner’s and the offspring of females sold in lamb.

If you have 300 odd lambs by a sire who is himself top 1%, mostly got by embryo transfer, and you record, your best lambs are bound to have good figures because you’re throwing so many repeating and linked data sets at BLUP.

on the other hand this year we had 50 lambs in total, by 4 sires, 3 of which we own and aren’t used in other flocks. The shitty end of the recording stick if you will.

Now I know we could take a couple of easy steps to radically improve the figures of our top lambs - buy semen from high index high accuracy tups, keep their sons and line breed, push the best lambs and ignore the poor ones but say they’re all one management group etc. but we just record what we have, we don’t “teach to the test” and won’t start now. I’ve seen too many good commercial tup producers totally ruin their flocks by chasing indexes.

it’s a big ask to get punters to understand EBVs let alone explain how they might want to cut some slack for small flocks who aim for consistency and don’t want to cull half their lambs.

What are the trait ebvs on the sire? Is his high index figure based on similar traits to his illustrious son?

 

[irish dom]

An animal that wins shows or makes silly money means nothing as far as overall ability goes, I've seen plenty of garbage winning shows and selling for too much money.

I wasn't under the impression that your system was particularly advanced if I'm honest.
The thing that takes sheep EBVs forward is CT scanning. Getting a KO, meat to bone ratio etc. is a fantastic opportunity.

The most important thing for breeding values is data in high volumes and large populations in the form of large numbers on each farm or very strong links between smaller farms.
That's what's stopped beef EBVs being effective in this country.

Fully agree with you. In Ireland we have a wide ranging CPTprogramme run on commercial farms using AI comparing multiple sires progeny in real life conditions similar to your Ram Compare in Britain. Data collection and recording is done independently by Sheep Ireland in these flocks and the accuracy is improving greatly with more data being collected over more progeny.

 

[M-J-G]

Fully agree with you. In Ireland we have a wide ranging CPTprogramme run on commercial farms using AI comparing multiple sires progeny in real life conditions similar to your Ram Compare in Britain. Data collection and recording is done independently by Sheep Ireland in these flocks and the accuracy is improving greatly with more data being collected over more progeny.

Commercial (coalface) data is essential to take things forward IMO, I've said that for years, but many ram and bull oppose this.

 

[Johngee]

So if you take the ones that look best and foster them onto a milky ewe (splitting twins to give them more, obviously), and take a few of the poorer ones and put them into the foster pen, would that help? And presumably you could get confused about birth dates too, or record a slightly lower birth weight (easier lambing?) and a slightly more optimistic one later (higher growth?)

Are any of these things checked by the society, or is it open to abuse like it seems to be for cattle?

Depends on what they want to achieve with performance recording. If they’re just using it as a marketing tool then go ahead. However if someone wants to make steady genetic progress in their flock then practices like this are just fooling themselves, as well as their customers.

 

[Ysgythan]

how about a largely used ai ram for example used over many flocks , so all the less astute dont kill crap but the top ones do

the top ones kill after scanning day

 

[Ysgythan]

What are the trait ebvs on the sire? Is his high index figure based on similar traits to his illustrious son?

 

[neilo]

Fully agree with you. In Ireland we have a wide ranging CPTprogramme run on commercial farms using AI comparing multiple sires progeny in real life conditions similar to your Ram Compare in Britain. Data collection and recording is done independently by Sheep Ireland in these flocks and the accuracy is improving greatly with more data being collected over more progeny.

@M-J-G mentioned 'CT' (Computer Tomography) scanning, which is a very different thing to a CPT (Central Progeny Test). A CT scanner is the same machine that hospitals use, giving the same results as carcass dissection, but in a live animal. CT a vast number of additional measurements that feed into the analysis, some of which are only used several years later. An ebv for intramuscular fat is now being generated, not just for animals that are CT scanned now, but also using the measurements taken from animals going back 20 years.

CT gives an accurate measure of meat:bone ratio, KO%, lean meat yield in the gigot, loin muscle area (not just depth at one point), etc. It is a game changer for performance recording in the UK in my opinion, especially in terminal sires.

 

[Ysgythan]

It is a game changer for performance recording in the UK in my opinion,

So it was sh!t before?

 

[neilo]

So it was sh!t before?

Before we started CT work 2 decades ago? Lots has changed in that time, not least ATAN knocking sheep with fat ebvs of -0.9!

 

[Ysgythan]

Before we started CT work 2 decades ago? Lots has changed in that time, not least ATAN knocking sheep with fat ebvs of -0.9!

but that’s the problem isn’t it. At every point we were told it was THE way. Then there was an innovation that transformed recording for the better, which meant that it was actually deficient previously.

 

[neilo]

but that’s the problem isn’t it. At every point we were told it was THE way. Then there was an innovation that transformed recording for the better, which meant that it was actually deficient previously.

Nothing is radically changed, just improved as more knowledge/data becomes available. Isn't that how it should be?

I can't see that anybody could ever argue that CT isn't a big step forward, if the goal is to breed prime lambs, and their sires. The additional cost is less of a good thing of course.

 

[Ysgythan]

Nothing is radically changed, just improved as more knowledge/data becomes available. Isn't that how it should be?

I can't see that anybody could ever argue that CT isn't a big step forward, if the goal is to breed prime lambs, and their sires. The additional cost is less of a good thing of course.

but even now the literature does not premise it as a less than perfect technology.

 

[Highland Mule]

Just like anything else that has been developed then, nothing is perfect, but we are continuously improving - just because each iteration is better than the previous, that doen't mean the previous was rubbish, just that it wasn't as good as this one.

 

[Ysgythan]

Just like anything else that has been developed then, nothing is perfect, but we are continuously improving - just because each iteration is better than the previous, that doen't mean the previous was rubbish, just that it wasn't as good as this one.

true, my point is the hype about it was less than honest, and skeptics were shouted down.

 

[andybk]

quick look at the french recording / sale sheet given with every pedigree , includes parents indexes
gigot debth and width
dos rein = loin debth and width
gras = fat
ivl = milk index (mother and father even terminals recorded same as ram compare )
prol = prolificacy
ambo = high meat indexes , amcr =high female indexes , ambo+ = elite high male and female indexes
points for breed type , wool (laine) , legs front and rear (aplombs)
epaule = shoulders
I A code = ai code , videos available for many on youtube from breed societies with that code number

RDM = above average index
RDC = below average index
RDT = terminal use only poor female traits
index is always rebased to 100 every year , so buyers know where they rank within the scheme , most (90%) 90 - 110 , indexes in the 115-125 is top 5 % all below 90 are eliminated from scheme

 

[Ysgythan]

My brother exported a ram who’s son was the reserve of the station, whatever that means. I think it’s to do with what you were saying @andybk

same guy has bought off him before and from Canllefaes and has had a lamb off us this year.

 

[andybk]

My brother exported a ram who’s son was the reserve of the station, whatever that means. I think it’s to do with what you were saying @andybk

same guy has bought off him before and from Canllefaes and has had a lamb off us this year.

basically when the station finishes its tests they have a sale , and there is a championship same as our shows , they keep the best 12or so on figures and visual appraisal which may or may not inc the champion and reserve ,

He did very well to get reserve champion at a station day , the quality can be very high (on data) ,a collection of top breeders make decision not one man / woman , usually go on to make top prices unless kept for use.

 

[Ysgythan]

basically when the station finishes its tests they have a sale , and there is a championship same as our shows , they keep the best 12or so on figures and visual appraisal which may or may not inc the champion and reserve ,

He did very well to get reserve champion at a station day , the quality can be very high (on data) ,a collection of top breeders make decision not one man / woman , usually go on to make top prices unless kept for use.

I suspect considering his blood would have no linkages to the French EBVs.

 

[andybk]

I suspect considering his blood would have no linkages to the French EBVs.

the interesting thing i have found is its not necessarily important to have a lot of linkage though nearly all ewes are recorded anyway (80%) , however their algorithm works it seems to get good sheep out the end , even among minor breeders with differing genetics .no one seems to have the monopoly on index numbers , probally because its always debased , What usually happens though is they get found out (if not good enough) when the ai rams get used over the 000s of pure commercial ewes, Which adds weight or not to grandsire indexes