Red Tractor arable..

[7610 super q]

The other thread seems to have lost the plot, so I've started another ( Got to keep up the pressure ).
OK. I get traceability. I get safe produce. I get safe storage. I get cleanliness. I even get having my moisture meter tested, although the merchants pay by what their meter says ( Do they calibrate theirs ? ).

But.....in the interests of food safety....

Why do I need to show a soil analysis ?
Why do I need to show an invoice for purchased fertiliser ?
Why do I need an emergency / disaster plan ?
Why do I need to show seed treatment records ?
" " Show a pic of where seed is stored ?
" " Drier maintenance records ?
" " Drier fuel purchase records ?
" " Waste transfer notes ?
" " Calibration records for fert spreaders ?
" " Show a pic of my fert spreader ?
" " Agronomists certificates ? ( Happy to provide their numbers, but this hints at we're liars )
" " Farm pollution risk assessment ?
" " Crop inspection records ?
" " Records of weeds / pests / diseases ?
" " Soil management plan ?

What has the above got to do with food safety / traceability ? Way outside RT remit. Severe mission creep.

 

[deleted user 837354]

The answer is that it is bullship.

If you think I would provide my certificates to dozens of clients you are having a fudging larf.

 

[DrWazzock]

The other thread seems to have lost the plot, so I've started another ( Got to keep up the pressure ).
OK. I get traceability. I get safe produce. I get safe storage. I get cleanliness. I even get having my moisture meter tested, although the merchants pay by what their meter says ( Do they calibrate theirs ? ).

But.....in the interests of food safety....

Why do I need to show a soil analysis ?
Why do I need to show an invoice for purchased fertiliser ?
Why do I need an emergency / disaster plan ?
Why do I need to show seed treatment records ?
" " Show a pic of where seed is stored ?
" " Drier maintenance records ?
" " Drier fuel purchase records ?
" " Waste transfer notes ?
" " Calibration records for fert spreaders ?
" " Show a pic of my fert spreader ?
" " Agronomists certificates ? ( Happy to provide their numbers, but this hints at we're liars )
" " Farm pollution risk assessment ?
" " Crop inspection records ?
" " Records of weeds / pests / diseases ?
" " Soil management plan ?

What has the above got to do with food safety / traceability ? Way outside RT remit. Severe mission creep.

You said it. Mission creep. Building empires. Taking on more staff. It’s gone way beyond food safety. That’s what upsets farmers, me in particular.
The emergency plan was the first sign of it here really. Everybody knows you either dial 999 or knock at the farmhouse without having to put notices up to tell people. What made me laugh most is we are supposed to put the HSE phone number on the notice - why? So people can shop us in? Who thought of that one? It’s a joke, but arises from the postman pat make believe world these people live in.

 

[Tarw Coch]

You said it. Mission creep. Building empires. Taking on more staff. It’s gone way beyond food safety. That’s what upsets farmers, me in particular.
The emergency plan was the first sign of it here really. Everybody knows you either dial 999 or knock at the farmhouse without having to put notices up to tell people. What made me laugh most is we are supposed to put the HSE phone number on the notice - why? So people can shop us in? Who thought of that one? It’s a joke, but arises from the postman pat make believe world these people live in.

I think the endless list of contacts is intended for large scale buisnesses where no one really knows anything beyond their own small role in the buisness.
Nothing but a pointless exercise in small business like mine or yours.
Anyway, they can’t be that important, I had to submit such a list of phone numbers to RT after my last inspection several months ago as not having one was a non compliance. They haven’t returned it yet so let’s hope I don’t them numbers in a hurry.

 

[Flat 10]

I agree. I’m a small tenant arable farmer by many standards and margins are tight. Do they really think I just chuck grain in the shed and let rats and bugs infest it willy nilly? I can’t afford to ruin it. Fair enough the mills test a sample for these things and if it passes that should be good enough.

 

[tullah]

If they were so concerned about food safety standards then the same standards would apply to imports.
Just proves it's all a fraud to give an income to otherwise unemployable nobodies and that includes all those who are hangers on who ought to know better. An utter disgrace.
Never mind they will have a shock soon.

 

[curlietailz]

I was sorting out an Option and Lease on a bit of land recently
I had one of those question forms that you fill in when doing this sort of thing
It was so long winded and irrelevant I’d got a bit narked
So when the question was “ in the event of an fire how would you vacate the property” or something along those lines

I wrote “ you shout FIRE then run as fast as you can to the nearest fence and jump over it “

my solicitor said she laughed out loud when she came to that bit ..... but made me edit it before sending to the client

I thought my answer was very accurate

 

[Brisel]

The other thread seems to have lost the plot, so I've started another ( Got to keep up the pressure ).
OK. I get traceability. I get safe produce. I get safe storage. I get cleanliness. I even get having my moisture meter tested, although the merchants pay by what their meter says ( Do they calibrate theirs ? ).

But.....in the interests of food safety....

Why do I need to show a soil analysis ? To prove you've obeyed the law to have it done at least once every 5 years
Why do I need to show an invoice for purchased fertiliser ? Traceability, especially for AN
Why do I need an emergency / disaster plan ? To prove that you've thought of such contingencies
Why do I need to show seed treatment records ? It's a pesticide treatment
" " Show a pic of where seed is stored ? Really? Probably to prove it's not containing stored grain
" " Drier maintenance records ? Measures to minimise the risk of fuel contamination of the grain
" " Drier fuel purchase records ? I didn't have to do this last time. To prove a recognised grade of fuel, not used chip fat
" " Waste transfer notes ? Paper trail to say you didn't burn it all Nov 5th
" " Calibration records for fert spreaders ? Fertiliser can pollute the environment and expect further legislation on this in the Environment Bill
" " Show a pic of my fert spreader ? New one on me. Usually done as part of the tray test here anyway.
" " Agronomists certificates ? ( Happy to provide their numbers, but this hints at we're liars ) Used to be just the BASIS & FACTS numbers, to prove current competence
" " Farm pollution risk assessment ? Risk assessments are part of normal H&S. This is just an environmental one
" " Crop inspection records ? News to me. The agronomist usually writes sheets but has done it verbally lately. I'd better get a paper trail in place...
" " Records of weeds / pests / diseases ? Will be on the crop inspection records and spray rec sheets
" " Soil management plan ? This used to be part of cross compliance and is coming back now.

What has the above got to do with food safety / traceability ? Way outside RT remit. Severe mission creep.

@7610 super q Excuse the butchering of quotes etc, but this way seemed cleanest.

It's about documented proof of compliance and good practice. Drier/machinery & seed storage, crop inspection, training & agronomist records help with food safety angle. Much of the rest is part of having a paper trail for environmental risks. All other businesses that deal with working outside have them too. Grain merchants have to show calibration records for moisture meters too (I do commercial grain storage too & have just had a UFAS inspection).

Yes, it's patronising and I told the RT consultation this too. It is not far from what other industries have to do to satisfy their parasites. That doesn't make it right, but it does show that we're not alone.

I'm not a RT fan nor an inspector, for the record.

 

[7610 super q]

The other thread seems to have lost the plot, so I've started another ( Got to keep up the pressure ).
OK. I get traceability. I get safe produce. I get safe storage. I get cleanliness. I even get having my moisture meter tested, although the merchants pay by what their meter says ( Do they calibrate theirs ? ).

But.....in the interests of food safety....

Why do I need to show a soil analysis ? To prove you've obeyed the law to have it done at least once every 5 years
Why do I need to show an invoice for purchased fertiliser ? Traceability, especially for AN
Why do I need an emergency / disaster plan ? To prove that you've thought of such contingencies
Why do I need to show seed treatment records ? It's a pesticide treatment
" " Show a pic of where seed is stored ? Really? Probably to prove it's not containing stored grain
" " Drier maintenance records ? Measures to minimise the risk of fuel contamination of the grain
" " Drier fuel purchase records ? I didn't have to do this last time. To prove a recognised grade of fuel, not used chip fat
" " Waste transfer notes ? Paper trail to say you didn't burn it all Nov 5th
" " Calibration records for fert spreaders ? Fertiliser can pollute the environment and expect further legislation on this in the Environment Bill
" " Show a pic of my fert spreader ? New one on me. Usually done as part of the tray test here anyway.
" " Agronomists certificates ? ( Happy to provide their numbers, but this hints at we're liars ) Used to be just the BASIS & FACTS numbers, to prove current competence
" " Farm pollution risk assessment ? Risk assessments are part of normal H&S. This is just an environmental one
" " Crop inspection records ? News to me. The agronomist usually writes sheets but has done it verbally lately. I'd better get a paper trail in place...
" " Records of weeds / pests / diseases ? Will be on the crop inspection records and spray rec sheets
" " Soil management plan ? This used to be part of cross compliance and is coming back now.

What has the above got to do with food safety / traceability ? Way outside RT remit. Severe mission creep.

@7610 super q Excuse the butchering of quotes etc, but this way seemed cleanest.

It's about documented proof of compliance and good practice. Drier/machinery & seed storage, crop inspection, training & agronomist records help with food safety angle. Much of the rest is part of having a paper trail for environmental risks. All other businesses that deal with working outside have them too. Grain merchants have to show calibration records for moisture meters too (I do commercial grain storage too & have just had a UFAS inspection).

Yes, it's patronising and I told the RT consultation this too. It is not far from what other industries have to do to satisfy their parasites. That doesn't make it right, but it does show that we're not alone.

I'm not a RT fan nor an inspector, for the record.

I still don't see what most of that has to do with food safety. Seeds will be sown in the ground to produce a crop, it is not destined for the food chain so what does it matter where it is stored ?
What does it matter what fuel / quantity is used in the drier ? I hire one, so have no choice what / how much fuel it uses.
Soil analysis / AN traceability....f**k all to do with food safety. Ditto pollution , and burning on November 5th......
I purposefully left out all the guff surrounding vermin control and crop spraying, as I concede it could potentially be an issue.

 

[Brisel]

I still don't see what most of that has to do with food safety. Seeds will be sown in the ground to produce a crop, it is not destined for the food chain so what does it matter where it is stored ?
What does it matter what fuel / quantity is used in the drier ? I hire one, so have no choice what / how much fuel it uses.
Soil analysis / AN traceability....fudge all to do with food safety. Ditto pollution , and burning on November 5th......
I purposefully left out all the guff surrounding vermin control and crop spraying, as I concede it could potentially be an issue.

• They don't want seed stored where it could contaminate grain for the food chain by slips bags, rodents etc
• It doesn't, but I have had grain rejected for the taint of fuel where we had a blocked diesel nozzle for a few hours. The food chain would love to ban gas oil for drying but they can't yet.
• Soil analysis - acidic soil will release heavy metals that could end up in the crop.
• AN - they have become more twitchy since the Beruit explosion. Not sure why - you can't sell non FIAS assured fertiliser here anyway. I got failed for not having notified the HSE about AN storage despite it only being a recommendation.

I get where you're coming from. It's making liars of honest people for the sake of a few bits of paper that may not represent what actually goes on. Most of RT is just checking that we legally comply with current legislation.

What I am against is the mission creep to gold plate everything at our expense while they import any old rubbish because it's 50p cheaper with minimal "assurance." Fight this as long as you can.

Did you reply to the RT consultation?

 

[Flat 10]

The other thread seems to have lost the plot, so I've started another ( Got to keep up the pressure ).
OK. I get traceability. I get safe produce. I get safe storage. I get cleanliness. I even get having my moisture meter tested, although the merchants pay by what their meter says ( Do they calibrate theirs ? ).

But.....in the interests of food safety....

Why do I need to show a soil analysis ? To prove you've obeyed the law to have it done at least once every 5 years
Why do I need to show an invoice for purchased fertiliser ? Traceability, especially for AN
Why do I need an emergency / disaster plan ? To prove that you've thought of such contingencies
Why do I need to show seed treatment records ? It's a pesticide treatment
" " Show a pic of where seed is stored ? Really? Probably to prove it's not containing stored grain
" " Drier maintenance records ? Measures to minimise the risk of fuel contamination of the grain
" " Drier fuel purchase records ? I didn't have to do this last time. To prove a recognised grade of fuel, not used chip fat
" " Waste transfer notes ? Paper trail to say you didn't burn it all Nov 5th
" " Calibration records for fert spreaders ? Fertiliser can pollute the environment and expect further legislation on this in the Environment Bill
" " Show a pic of my fert spreader ? New one on me. Usually done as part of the tray test here anyway.
" " Agronomists certificates ? ( Happy to provide their numbers, but this hints at we're liars ) Used to be just the BASIS & FACTS numbers, to prove current competence
" " Farm pollution risk assessment ? Risk assessments are part of normal H&S. This is just an environmental one
" " Crop inspection records ? News to me. The agronomist usually writes sheets but has done it verbally lately. I'd better get a paper trail in place...
" " Records of weeds / pests / diseases ? Will be on the crop inspection records and spray rec sheets
" " Soil management plan ? This used to be part of cross compliance and is coming back now.

What has the above got to do with food safety / traceability ? Way outside RT remit. Severe mission creep.

@7610 super q Excuse the butchering of quotes etc, but this way seemed cleanest.

It's about documented proof of compliance and good practice. Drier/machinery & seed storage, crop inspection, training & agronomist records help with food safety angle. Much of the rest is part of having a paper trail for environmental risks. All other businesses that deal with working outside have them too. Grain merchants have to show calibration records for moisture meters too (I do commercial grain storage too & have just had a UFAS inspection).

Yes, it's patronising and I told the RT consultation this too. It is not far from what other industries have to do to satisfy their parasites. That doesn't make it right, but it does show that we're not alone.

I'm not a RT fan nor an inspector, for the record.

What is the point of paperwork? If you are worried about my water quality test it. If I’ve polluted it fine me. Documented proof of compliance is just BS.

 

[7610 super q]

• They don't want seed stored where it could contaminate grain for the food chain by slips bags, rodents etc
• It doesn't, but I have had grain rejected for the taint of fuel where we had a blocked diesel nozzle for a few hours. The food chain would love to ban gas oil for drying but they can't yet.
• Soil analysis - acidic soil will release heavy metals that could end up in the crop.
• AN - they have become more twitchy since the Beruit explosion. Not sure why - you can't sell non FIAS assured fertiliser here anyway. I got failed for not having notified the HSE about AN storage despite it only being a recommendation.

I get where you're coming from. It's making liars of honest people for the sake of a few bits of paper that may not represent what actually goes on. Most of RT is just checking that we legally comply with current legislation.

What I am against is the mission creep to gold plate everything at our expense while they import any old rubbish because it's 50p cheaper with minimal "assurance." Fight this as long as you can.

Did you reply to the RT consultation?

Yes I did, but I don't hold out much hope for change. I'm OK with it " as is " TBH, but enough is enough, no more. Thank god I don't employ anyone, nor irrigate anything either looking at the requirements.

 

[Brisel]

Yes I did, but I don't hold out much hope for change. I'm OK with it " as is " TBH, but enough is enough, no more. Thank god I don't employ anyone, nor irrigate anything either looking at the requirements.

I'm not defending them, just trying to explain why they want all this paperwork.

 

[Brisel]

What is the point of paperwork? If you are worried about my water quality test it. If I’ve polluted it fine me. Documented proof of compliance is just BS.

Paperwork creates jobs for others. It's about showing that you've understood the risks and written stuff down to say that you've tried to manage those risks. Point taken.

 

[teslacoils]

When you see the bs for other industries, it's not *awful*. More a symptom of a society where you need to give a "toolbox talk" to a 25-year-old to show him how to use a bloody sweeping brush, and send him on a course to use a shovel properly. Cos if you don't and he hurts himself the insurance doesn't pay out. Sigh.

 

[spin cycle]

i'm gonna put this 'out there'...cos i'm fed up with arable farmers moaning about RT but not voting with their feet......cos i did 5 years ago

IMO....if you're an arable farmer owner occupier on less than 200 acs.....you do not need to be RT ....you can keep some stock....sell feed to other farmers....even bagged corn to small holders...hay to horsey types etc
.....add in that if you're stewardship minded i reckon with 400 owned arable you've no need to be RT either

if the above 'suggestions' are to much hassle then 'suck it up' and stay RT

i exclude tenants cos i've no experience of it

 

[DRC]

I could write in my diary on any given day that I’ve cleaned and sanitised my grain bucket , then immediately go and load pig muck with it, followed by a swill out and load grain . They wouldn’t have a scooby, so it’s a pointless exercise .
I don’t btw, as have two buckets and Just wouldn’t do it anyway . So what’s the point of me recording the date in my diary. Im afraid as I get older I’ve no time and patience for these chancers

 

[teslacoils]

I could write in my diary on any given day that I’ve cleaned and sanitised my grain bucket , then immediately go and load pig muck with it, followed by a swill out and load grain . They wouldn’t have a scooby, so it’s a pointless exercise .
I don’t btw, as have two buckets and Just wouldn’t do it anyway . So what’s the point of me recording the date in my diary. Im afraid as I get older I’ve no time and patience for these chancers

The conversation goes

"when did you clean your bucket?"
"I've got two buckets"
"When did you clean it"
"Never, it lives in the shed and only loads grain".
"ERROR!"
"I could make something up for you if you'd like?"

 

[DRC]

i'm gonna put this 'out there'...cos i'm fed up with arable farmers moaning about RT but not voting with their feet......cos i did 5 years ago

IMO....if you're an arable farmer owner occupier on less than 200 acs.....you do not need to be RT ....you can keep some stock....sell feed to other farmers....even bagged corn to small holders...hay to horsey types etc
.....add in that if you're stewardship minded i reckon with 400 owned arable you've no need to be RT either

if the above 'suggestions' are to much hassle then 'suck it up' and stay RT

i exclude tenants cos i've no experience of it

I don’t want to keep stock, or at least not enough to eat hundreds of tons of wheat.
I do sell quite a bit of barley farm to farm, never asked if it’s farm assured, grow fodder crops for big dairy farms and AD, again never asked for proof of assurance, it’s just the wheat that’s the problem . Its my main crop and non of the feed mills will take non FA .

 

[Luke Cropwalker]

I don't think the issue is having to record every last detail of everything that happens on farm. I think the issue is that certainly for feed grains it appears that imported corn is not held to the same standards and can easily come into the country at the expense of UK farm gate prices. I have no issue with farm assurance per se but I don't see any premium (if there is such a premium) coming back onto farm.